Obesity is now a Disease...

[Guest Dirty Deads]

I'll never NEVER understand that.

 

Seriously- I never will.

 

I geek out if I start to feel my skin folding and I haven't worked out in one week.   Seriously- I don't understand.  And I don't know that I ever will.  I don't bother to fight it- I just accept people for whatever reason didn't see it- and they are making changes- or are trying to make changes. 

The past is the past.  Acknowledge it so you don't repeat it and move forward. 

 

it is very much like drug abuse. We know it should change, but the serotonin release and the path of least resistance leads to the quick fix "bad food" WE see it, we do. We mostly lack the willpower to stop.

[Jetikus]

I don't consider Obesity a disease... I consider it the cause of many diseases. The Socrates Quote comes to mind when I think of obesity. Some people might have other health problems that act as a major hurdle to them and hinder their efforts at getting in amazing shape. In that regard, a hurdle is a hurdle, not a wall. Flying without a device is impossible. Finding the square root of pi is impossible (if I'm wrong, you're better at math than me lol). Being in a healthy range of weight, however, is not only possible - it's the only thing that makes sense to do. There's no excuse to get so dangerously overweight that it causes other problems. Even if you can't work out, for whatever reason, eating right will at least keep you out of that danger zone.

 

And I mean, why allow yourself to get that heavy? It only makes you feel terrible all around. If depression (coming from a guy who knows) is what got someone to that state... I can only imagine the despair one must feel when they're at that point. I felt so terrible about my self-image when I got to 20% body fat due to depression eating. Back, Knee, and various other problems... I can only imagine the agony from all the extra weight.

 

Moral of this mini-rant: Those terrible foods are never going to make you feel better... so why keep eating them?

[Thrillho]

Because those terrible foods were making me feel better... so I kept eating them.   I think that's the fundamental disconnect a LOT of people, in the world at large and in this thread, are having. 

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I don't consider Obesity a disease... I consider it the cause of many diseases. The Socrates Quote comes to mind when I think of obesity. Some people might have other health problems that act as a major hurdle to them and hinder their efforts at getting in amazing shape. In that regard, a hurdle is a hurdle, not a wall. Flying without a device is impossible. Finding the square root of pi is impossible (if I'm wrong, you're better at math than me lol). Being in a healthy range of weight, however, is not only possible - it's the only thing that makes sense to do. There's no excuse to get so dangerously overweight that it causes other problems. Even if you can't work out, for whatever reason, eating right will at least keep you out of that danger zone.

 

And I mean, why allow yourself to get that heavy? It only makes you feel terrible all around. If depression (coming from a guy who knows) is what got someone to that state... I can only imagine the despair one must feel when they're at that point. I felt so terrible about my self-image when I got to 20% body fat due to depression eating. Back, Knee, and various other problems... I can only imagine the agony from all the extra weight.

 

Moral of this mini-rant: Those terrible foods are never going to make you feel better... so why keep eating them?

 

That's like saying to an alcoholic that alcohol is never going to make them feel better, so why keep drinking it?

 

There's plenty of emotional shit that leads to people eating as a crutch or a straight up addiction to sugar, just emotional shit drives people to drink. It's not as bad as a lot of other addictions and it doesn't harm you as much, but believe me, it's there, and it's a pain in the ass to kick. People feel so shitty that the short term enjoyment of the sweet sweet sugar is worth the longer term consequences to them. That's why they fall off the wagon, just like any other addiction.

 

Being obese and having people be more shitty to you in general makes the pattern worse, and it spirals out of control, that's how it happens for a lot of people. That's why I was fat as a kid anyway, emotional issues. When you're constantly being made fun of or criticized, the only good feelings you get are form family, and one of the major things families do together is eat together. This is turning into rambling and Wifey is on her way to pick me up, so I'll stop.

[I-Jo]

For the recond... I'm not suggesting people be shitty to other people.  despite my callous mentality- I have no problem discussing the issue with them as objectively as I can... because well I need to be able to do that. 

 

But I'm not going to make fun of them.  I have personal issues about it- that I keep to myself.  But I don't make fun of them- it's not helpful at all- supportive and it just makes someone who probably has depression feel EVEN WORSE.  Which is why i never advocate having some sort of "fat intervention"  They already know it- find other ways to be helpful. 

 

That being said if you are like 500 lbs and want to sit next to us at Cirque de Solie.... where the seats are tiny and ... sheesh tiny.

I'm going to have an issue... because HOLY FUCK.  And yes- that almost happened and I almost moved.  

[Jetikus]

That's like saying to an alcoholic that alcohol is never going to make them feel better, so why keep drinking it?

 

There's plenty of emotional shit that leads to people eating as a crutch or a straight up addiction to sugar, just emotional shit drives people to drink. It's not as bad as a lot of other addictions and it doesn't harm you as much, but believe me, it's there, and it's a pain in the ass to kick. People feel so shitty that the short term enjoyment of the sweet sweet sugar is worth the longer term consequences to them. That's why they fall off the wagon, just like any other addiction.

 

Being obese and having people be more shitty to you in general makes the pattern worse, and it spirals out of control, that's how it happens for a lot of people. That's why I was fat as a kid anyway, emotional issues. When you're constantly being made fun of or criticized, the only good feelings you get are form family, and one of the major things families do together is eat together. This is turning into rambling and Wifey is on her way to pick me up, so I'll stop.

 

I once was on that downward spiral of depression eating, but as I said when I got to 20% body fat I felt so much more worse than I did when I began that pattern. I dunno how to describe what I'm trying to say better than this: If you see the problems in your life then it's your responsibility to do something about it. I don't make fun of obese people. My dad's obese. However, when they complain about their pains or complain that nobody loves them because they're fat, my instant response is "If you're not happy with who you are, you need to change."

 

For the recond... I'm not suggesting people be shitty to other people.  despite my callous mentality- I have no problem discussing the issue with them as objectively as I can... because well I need to be able to do that. 

 

But I'm not going to make fun of them.  I have personal issues about it- that I keep to myself.  But I don't make fun of them- it's not helpful at all.   

 

That being said if you are like 500 lbs and want to sit next to us at Cirque de Solie.... where the seats are tiny and ... sheesh tiny.

I'm going to have an issue... because HOLY FUCK.  And yes- that almost happened and I almost moved.  

 

I agree with this. There's no need to be cruel to people, for often times they need encouragement and not a verbal beat down. However, when they start making things inconvenient with their problems something needs to be said.

[UberTumbleweed]

I'll never NEVER understand that.

 

Seriously- I never will.

 

I geek out if I start to feel my skin folding and I haven't worked out in one week.   Seriously- I don't understand.  And I don't know that I ever will.  I don't bother to fight it- I just accept people for whatever reason didn't see it- and they are making changes- or are trying to make changes. 

The past is the past.  Acknowledge it so you don't repeat it and move forward. 

 

For some bodies, it's distressingly easy, especially with how our society treats eating.  People are not encouraged to think positive thoughts about their bodies.  A lot of the negative thoughts we pick up from society are false; it's not so easy to pick out the one true negative we might be getting.

 

Plus, if you're fat from a young age, it's nearly impossible for most people to lose that weight.  Society is supremely unhelpful with weight loss.  And you didn't choose to be fat when you've been fat since before you could take real, independent responsibility for your health.

 

I was happy this week because my size 10 jeans were getting big on me.  Last year, the size 12 — from the same store in the same style in the same fabric — were too small.  Today, my 10s were dirty, so I put on the 12s.  Guess what?  They're still too small.  In one year, the sizes changed so that the 10 was bigger than the 12.  I'm a smart person with a ton of privileged and advantage for health knowledge and I had literally no idea that I was just as fat now as I was a year ago. I truly thought I'd lost fat.

 

And here's a photo of me with a BMI of 40 and an estimated body fat percentage of between 45 and 50%.  I'm not so huge that you'd see me on the street and think OMGZ TEH DEATHFAT!!!! but I was morbidly obese.  And I didn't know it till after I started losing weight.  (PS:  nearly 70lbs lighter, that shirt still fits me.)

 

 

[Guest Dirty Deads]

I once was on that downward spiral of depression eating, but as I said when I got to 20% body fat I felt so much more worse than I did when I began that pattern. I dunno how to describe what I'm trying to say better than this: If you see the problems in your life then it's your responsibility to do something about it. I don't make fun of obese people. My dad's obese. However, when they complain about their pains or complain that nobody loves them because they're fat, my instant response is "If you're not happy with who you are, you need to change."

 

 

 

Having dealt with depression yourself, you know there are moment, hours, days, hell, even years where you see no point and cannot find the will to even give a shit about yourself.

[chairohkey]

Plus, if you're fat from a young age, it's nearly impossible for most people to lose that weight. 

 

This is not true. Notwithstanding those with legitimate health issues or disorders there is no "impossible" barrier preventing them from shedding the fat. Its well within their capacity to do so. They just lack the skills, knowledge, and determination.

[Jetikus]

Having dealt with depression yourself, you know there are moment, hours, days, hell, even years where you see no point and cannot find the will to even give a shit about yourself.

 

True. But it's still no excuse.

 

I make no excuses for myself and my former actions either. Call me unsympathetic, but that's not the case. I am sympathetic and I know that feeling of just wanting to roll over and die. Been there, done that. Even attempted suicide a long while ago because of that depression and wound up finding religion. In spite of that, however, it's a matter of personal responsibility to change that which makes you unhappy if you are unhappy. Drugs aren't going to fix it. They'll numb the pain, sure, but it's still there. The only thing that fixes a problem (at least in my experience) is taking action and finding a solution. Nothing and Nobody is going to do that for you and I had to realize that when I looked at myself in the mirror.

 

There's plenty of quotes that I can spout, but I'll just copy paste one of my own here because it shows how I think of things now:

 

“Life... is a game you can't win. Now, that being said, you shouldn't just quit the game. That's no way to be. The wisest of us understand. The wisest of us play the game for the game's sake, because games can be fun and there will be times in the game where your heart soars with victory. Then there will be times when it plummets in defeat. It will be during those times, when you look at the game, and you question why you’re still playing.

“I urge you to continue. Like the Game Master who is always one step ahead of you, Life will inevitably put you in checkmate. Why be a sore loser and toss the pieces to the ground before the game has run its course? Why not, instead, play the game and find a way to make it fun and interesting? At least, at the end of the game, you can look at your opponent with a smile, shake his hand, and truly say it was a good game. That in itself is a trophy – a prize that is won at the end of it. And always remember… a game is just a game.â€

 

There's nothing sadder than seeing someone who has given up completely just because life has hit them hard. Some things are unbelievably crippling and I know this to be true, but ultimately your life is what you make it and that's on you. It's your life; do something good with it that'll make you happy in the long run. That drug, that booze, and that pizza might make you happy now... but it's only going to make you miserable later and you know it. So why do it? It no longer makes sense to me to do something like that.

 

I guess sometimes you have to look at the mirror and ask yourself some questions... starting with "am I happy?".

 

[Guest Dirty Deads]

True. But it's still no excuse.

 

I make no excuses for myself and my former actions either. Call me unsympathetic, but that's not the case. I am sympathetic and I know that feeling of just wanting to roll over and die. Been there, done that. Even attempted suicide a long while ago because of that depression and wound up finding religion. In spite of that, however, it's a matter of personal responsibility to change that which makes you unhappy if you are unhappy. Drugs aren't going to fix it. They'll numb the pain, sure, but it's still there. The only thing that fixes a problem (at least in my experience) is taking action and finding a solution. Nothing and Nobody is going to do that for you and I had to realize that when I looked at myself in the mirror.

 

There's plenty of quotes that I can spout, but I'll just copy paste one of my own here because it shows how I think of things now:

 

“Life... is a game you can't win. Now, that being said, you shouldn't just quit the game. That's no way to be. The wisest of us understand. The wisest of us play the game for the game's sake, because games can be fun and there will be times in the game where your heart soars with victory. Then there will be times when it plummets in defeat. It will be during those times, when you look at the game, and you question why you’re still playing.

“I urge you to continue. Like the Game Master who is always one step ahead of you, Life will inevitably put you in checkmate. Why be a sore loser and toss the pieces to the ground before the game has run its course? Why not, instead, play the game and find a way to make it fun and interesting? At least, at the end of the game, you can look at your opponent with a smile, shake his hand, and truly say it was a good game. That in itself is a trophy – a prize that is won at the end of it. And always remember… a game is just a game.â€

 

There's nothing sadder than seeing someone who has given up completely just because life has hit them hard. Some things are unbelievably crippling and I know this to be true, but ultimately your life is what you make it and that's on you. It's your life; do something good with it that'll make you happy in the long run. That drug, that booze, and that pizza might make you happy now... but it's only going to make you miserable later and you know it. So why do it? It no longer makes sense to me to do something like that.

 

I guess sometimes you have to look at the mirror and ask yourself some questions... starting with "am I happy?".

 

 

 

It reaaally sounds like you're confusing depression with being unhappy.

[Jetikus]

It reaaally sounds like you're confusing depression with being unhappy.

 

Depression:

Noun

1. Severe despondency and dejection, accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy.
2. A condition of mental disturbance, typically with lack of energy and difficulty in maintaining concentration or interest in life.

(This was my thoughts on the meaning)

 

Unhappy:

Adjective

1. Not happy: "an unhappy marriage".
2. Not satisfied or pleased with (a situation): "many were unhappy about the scale of the cuts".

 

Seems to me the difference is the severity of negative emotions and the length of time. *shrug*

 

Either way, my point is still valid.

[Guest Dirty Deads]

Depression:

Noun

1. Severe despondency and dejection, accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy.
2. A condition of mental disturbance, typically with lack of energy and difficulty in maintaining concentration or interest in life.

(This was my thoughts on the meaning)

 

Unhappy:

Adjective

1. Not happy: "an unhappy marriage".
2. Not satisfied or pleased with (a situation): "many were unhappy about the scale of the cuts".

 

Seems to me the difference is the severity of negative emotions and the length of time. *shrug*

 

Either way, my point is still valid.

Depression as a disease isn't something you can just snap out of is my point. You're talking like you can just BE happy one day and just ignore your self loathing and lack of will to do anything.

[Jetikus]

Depression as a disease isn't something you can just snap out of is my point. You're talking like you can just BE happy one day and just ignore your self loathing and lack of will to do anything.

 

Whoa... ok, I see where you're coming from and I apologize and will clarify. I'm not exactly out of the woods when it comes to my depression. It hits me worst at night and when it's raining... dunno why, just does. It hits hard when it hits. This is less frequent now that I'm actually doing something about it, but it's definitely still there and it's definitely something to be reckoned with. It'll kill you if you let it, simple as that. But you simply HAVE to get a hold of yourself first and develop some willpower if you're going to beat it. That's what I'm saying.

[Guest Dirty Deads]

Whoa... ok, I see where you're coming from and I apologize and will clarify. I'm not exactly out of the woods when it comes to my depression. It hits me worst at night and when it's raining... dunno why, just does. It hits hard when it hits. This is less frequent now that I'm actually doing something about it, but it's definitely still there and it's definitely something to be reckoned with. It'll kill you if you let it, simple as that. But you simply HAVE to get a hold of yourself first and develop some willpower if you're going to beat it. That's what I'm saying.

That I understand. I have dealt with it myself for a long time and you really do have to act  to strengthen yourself during those moments of clarity.  I had moments where I didn't want to live and attempted suicide, but I did find moments where I could feel I had something to live for. I stayed pretty big, but I did do something. Whichever way you let it take you, it will snowball in that direction. If you climb back up during those moments, you can eventually get the ball rolling in the right direction. 

[UberTumbleweed]

This is not true. Notwithstanding those with legitimate health issues or disorders there is no "impossible" barrier preventing them from shedding the fat. Its well within their capacity to do so. They just lack the skills, knowledge, and determination.

 

I stand by my statement but disagree with your interpretation of it.

 

The statistics I've seen on gain-back from weight loss seems to support the idea that most people find losing weight and maintaining the fat loss to be extremely difficult -- otherwise, they'd quit failing at such monumental rates.

 

When you've been fat forever, you have an entire lifetime of fat habits, fat mentality, fat skills, and an entire social network that expects you to be and stay fat, and you have to overcome it all.  They are more likely to have fat parents who never even implied exercise or healthy foods to them as children.  They are more likely to be poor and have limited access to outside, reliable sources of health info, or even know where to get that.  

 

That's a far greater burden than having been fat for just some of adulthood.  These people are, generally, the most likely to fail out of a group that is already almost completely likely to fail.

 

It is absolutely within their capacity; you're right about that.  But just being possible doesn't preclude being "nearly impossible".  I personally feel there's a lot we could do socially to boost their chances, because like you I believe the biggest hurdles are NOT physical.  But there isn't help over the biggest hurdles in an accessible way where I live (which is a big city with lots of health resources; it's worse in rural areas around me; but perhaps your locale is different).

[I-Jo]

 

When you've been fat forever, you have an entire lifetime of fat habits, fat mentality, fat skills, and an entire social network that expects you to be and stay fat, and you have to overcome it all.  They are more likely to have fat parents who never even implied exercise or healthy foods to them as children.  They are more likely to be poor and have limited access to outside, reliable sources of health info, or even know where to get that.  

 

That's a far greater burden than having been fat for just some of adulthood.  These people are, generally, the most likely to fail out of a group that is already almost completely likely to fail.

 

 

true- it may be difficult.

 

But it's not impossible.  

[Waldo]

Geez, I hate it when people judge BMIs as useless because some super-fit-person is officially "obese". The BMI system comes with a bunch of disclaimers.

This is great and all, but health insurance pricing for individuals is based on BMI at the moment, and everybody is required to purchase it in the next 6 months.

[Waldo]

UberTumbleweed, on 21 Jun 2013 - 00:28, said:

The statistics I've seen on gain-back from weight loss seems to support the idea that most people find losing weight and maintaining the fat loss to be extremely difficult -- otherwise, they'd quit failing at such monumental rates.

So true.

Less so here, but there is always such a weird dynamic when discussing weight loss online; maybe 1 in 5 will reach their final goals, of those maybe 1 in 5 will successfully maintain their loss; in every discussion such a tiny fraction of people will be successful, for the most part it is the case of the blind leading the blind. In general those that have been successful are either totally ignored, or more often strongly opposed (for being jerks/a-holes/trolls).

[level250geek]

Here's the way I look at it: alcoholism is considered a disease, right? It's a disease you get as a result of your lifestyle choices, but once you get it, alcoholism has to be medically treated to safely cure yourself of it. Same as drug addiction. So why SHOULDN'T obesity be considered a disease, especially in its most extreme forms? 

 

Granted, I'm on board with those that hope this means the medical community will start encouraging people to make healthy choices and take a more proactive stance in fighting obesity and not just continue to parrot the mantra of "eat right and exercise," which means absolutely jack to me if I don't know how to do either. I don't want to see this as an in for people to get surgeries and pills (unless, of course, it's a life-or-death situation and that surgery or pill will have a real and lasting benefit--which would be a rare case, I'm sure). However, I'm okay with procedures that assist in weight loss and don't do the work for you. My wife had gastric bypass before we even started dating. We were friends at the time; I can vouch that she did 90% of the work required for her to lose weight. The surgery just gave her a head start. This should be used to give people assistance, not a crutch to lean on.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Here's the way I look at it: alcoholism is considered a disease, right? It's a disease you get as a result of your lifestyle choices, but once you get it, alcoholism has to be medically treated to safely cure yourself of it. Same as drug addiction. So why SHOULDN'T obesity be considered a disease, especially in its most extreme forms?

 

My main argument would be because obesity is a symptom of something else, some other disorder that caused it. Most of the time it is some sort of mental disorder like an addiction to sugar, eating to make yourself feel better, etc. those are the disorders or diseases that cause obesity, the symptom. You CAN be obese without a disorder or disease, which I think is the major issue of labeling it a disease itself. I can be lazy and complacent and just not care and get obese, but yet I have no disorder or disease other than just not giving a crap.

[Waldo]

Gainsdalf, on 21 Jun 2013 - 11:55, said:

I can be lazy and complacent and just not care and get obese, but yet I have no disorder or disease other than just not giving a crap.

I would still argue that you have an eating disorder. If you are not properly fueling your lifestyle and health, you have an eating disorder; undereating or overeating.

(with the exception of purposeful disorder, bulking or cutting)

[level250geek]

My main argument would be because obesity is a symptom of something else, some other disorder that caused it. Most of the time it is some sort of mental disorder like an addiction to sugar, eating to make yourself feel better, etc. those are the disorders or diseases that cause obesity, the symptom. You CAN be obese without a disorder or disease, which I think is the major issue of labeling it a disease itself. I can be lazy and complacent and just not care and get obese, but yet I have no disorder or disease other than just not giving a crap.

Good point. I still don't see the harm in treating the obesity as its own thing, seeing whereas it has its own set of complications and challenges and treating the "cause" of the obesity won't always help with the obesity itself.

 

For example, oftentimes the "lazy, complacent, and just not care," is, itself, a symptom of depression. If you treat the depression, those feelings become easier to overcome (they don't go away, mind you). So good: you now have more of a drive to get out the house and do things and a greater sense of self-worth--but you're still obese. Just because the depression goes away doesn't mean you become better educated about diet and exercise. That only comes with attacking the obesity directly.

[KingZora]

Here's the way I look at it: alcoholism is considered a disease, right? It's a disease you get as a result of your lifestyle choices, but once you get it, alcoholism has to be medically treated to safely cure yourself of it. Same as drug addiction. So why SHOULDN'T obesity be considered a disease, especially in its most extreme forms? 

Alcoholism can come as a result of lifestyle choices but it can also be hereditary.  This may or may not be true of obesity, and there are just too many different factors that cause it.  I don't think simply the state of being overweight is a disease... but if we need to call it that so that people can figure out the causes better and get people help than so be it.  The fact that we can just not care about what we eat and end up in such a horrible state speaks a lot about our society.  It used to be that being fat was considered attractive because it meant you were an amazing provider... now you need to be an amazing provider to be skinny... that is more messed up than whether we call the effect of it a disease or not.

[Guest Dirty Deads]

Alcoholism can come as a result of lifestyle choices but it can also be hereditary.  This may or may not be true of obesity

You could argue that both alcoholism and obesity are hereditary from an addiction standpoint. My mom and my brother both did/do hardcore drugs, smoke and drink heavily. They were both VERY skinny, to the point people wanted to make them eat. I have never done drugs or followed their lifestyle choices, however, I became obese. My point is that perhaps it is an addictive personality that is hereditary and I chose a different drug.