Introverts, Social Misfits and the Terror of Talking to People

[Machete]

What is taboo and what isn't? I never know if what I'm saying is crossing lines or not

 

Every society has different ones. NatGeo has an entire series about it, which actually has some very interesting episodes. It covers everything from body modification to prostitution to cross-dressing to cannibals. I think the disconnect with society that awkward people experience (and in turn drive them into even more awkwardness) is what makes them largely oblivious to customs, to include taboos. I'm sure a lot of posters here have spend a big part of their lives feeling like some weird foreigner, even though they're in their native country. "Solitude is dangerous to reason, without being favorable to virtue... Remember that the solitary mortal is certainly luxurious, probably superstitious, and possibly mad." (Dr. Samuel Johnson)

 

I have to admit that sometimes I like to cross them on purpose, either to facilitate and encourage open-minded objective thought, or sometimes to shake things up just because it makes people uncomfortable. Because some men just want to watch the world burn.

[Hit]

 

 

I am not very concerned with Taboo either, but after that whole pedo thing on another thread that went insane bc people cant [typically] think logically about a subject

 

Oh I missed this yesterday, though I saw you cross post it to the autism safe space. I'm glad it's here to be honest, because I can actually talk to it in this thread. Safe spaces matter, and they're not for people who lack the experience of the group to invade with their opinions and arguments on why everyone is wrong. But since this is an open thread, let's nip it in the bud real quick. Here's the comment:

 

 

 

One of the arguments I've heard (besides "the bible says so") is it being a slippery slope. I have heard that pedophiles are now petitioning for their right to be attracted to underage children, under the assumption that one cannot choose who one is attracted to. Not many people may be okay with that at the moment. I'm sure there are discussions about how it's not the same thing, but it's all semantics dependent upon whomever is listening.

 

This is not an example of someone broaching a taboo, or saying "hey why is this thing taboo but this other thing not?" even (though neither of those would be appropriate for the LGBTQ safe space either). This is someone merely making a comparison, offering an opinion, and that's fine. Up until this part:

 

 

 

I'm sure there are discussions about how it's not the same thing, but it's all semantics dependent upon whomever is listening.

 

Because this statement says "I think they're the same thing", ie homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing. I disagree with that opinion for a variety of reasons, but mostly I take umbrage with any person who thinks that's an appropriate thing to discuss, opine or otherwise suggest as fact in an LGBTQ safe space. Safe spaces are not the place to ask "why is your life different from that of a pedo?" to use your phrasing. Nor is it the place to suggest that people be okay with your lack of social acumen and over-abundance of histrionics when talking about their lived experiences. Lived experiences, again, that you don't have. 

 

 

 

How to ask, is a subject all to its own.

 

The question is more so "when is it appropriate to ask?" than how, and what do you hope to get out of asking the question. Are you really trying to start a conversation, and if so will the people im asking be open to that topic? Or am I just shooting my mouth to be incendiary - acting without thinking about where I am, or who I'm talking to? 

 

And that's why, in this space - an open forum, where the subject is already broached, and my specific responses brought prior to my involvement - will I assert my opinions. As opposed to trotting over to the autism safe space and starting my own drama over my opinions on all y'all lives. 

[Bekah]

Oh I missed this yesterday, though I saw you cross post it to the autism safe space. I'm glad it's here to be honest, because I can actually talk to it in this thread. Safe spaces matter, and they're not for people who lack the experience of the group to invade with their opinions and arguments on why everyone is wrong. But since this is an open thread, let's nip it in the bud real quick. Here's the comment:

 

 

This is not an example of someone broaching a taboo, or saying "hey why is this thing taboo but this other thing not?" even (though neither of those would be appropriate for the LGBTQ safe space either). This is someone merely making a comparison, offering an opinion, and that's fine. Up until this part:

 

 

Because this statement says "I think they're the same thing", ie homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing. I disagree with that opinion for a variety of reasons, but mostly I take umbrage with any person who thinks that's an appropriate thing to discuss, opine or otherwise suggest as fact in an LGBTQ safe space. Safe spaces are not the place to ask "why is your life different from that of a pedo?" to use your phrasing. Nor is it the place to suggest that people be okay with your lack of social acumen and over-abundance of histrionics when talking about their lived experiences. Lived experiences, again, that you don't have. 

 

 

The question is more so "when is it appropriate to ask?" than how, and what do you hope to get out of asking the question. Are you really trying to start a conversation, and if so will the people im asking be open to that topic? Or am I just shooting my mouth to be incendiary - acting without thinking about where I am, or who I'm talking to? 

 

And that's why, in this space - an open forum, where the subject is already broached, and my specific responses brought prior to my involvement - will I assert my opinions. As opposed to trotting over to the autism safe space and starting my own clusterfuck drama over my opinions on all y'all lives.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are not saying that the point being raised is the issue, but moreso because it was raised in the safe space thread? I do agree that was not an appropriate choice.

However, the point raised was still a valid one, in my opinion...and because I am aware of Machete's self professed lack of social acumen, MY point was merely to suggest that it was likely not meant to be inflammatory, and if I remember correctly, he apologized.

I realize that it doesn't erase the feelings that were evoked because people all have significant emotional attachment to their beliefs, experiences and values, but it just illustrated to me the clarity that even though on this forum, in general, we all accept eachother and are supportive, those of us with lesser social awareness will continue to do and say things that are offensive and will be wholly misunderstood at times. We also may never be aware of it.

So I personally gained some insights in the reaction to that incident and hence the Safe Space for us was born.

I was intentionally vague about the controversial posts/threads in an attempt to not create more problems for anyone involved because the last thing either thread needs is trolls and intentional insensitivity. It's rather interesting to note how many of us are in both places and do share similar experiences. I have been discriminated against for many reasons in my lifetime, and while it isnt exactly the same, itt is still how I was created and is unchangeable and blatant to anyone who sees me, so I DO understand what it feels like to be treated like I am something to be discredited, treated like I am subhuman and not worthy of equal treatment because I am. Discrimination is Discrimination, regardless of type. It is ALL wrong.

[Sam Ashen]

No idea how that escalated.  +1 WIS if I am smart enough not to inquire.  Requires successful willpower check.  It kind of looks like a discussion that was elsewhere that was taken here for some reason.  Most of us here are having an open discussion about what makes us awkward about social interaction and how to deal with it.

[Bekah]

No idea how that escalated.  +1 WIS if I am smart enough not to inquire.  Requires successful willpower check.  It kind of looks like a discussion that was elsewhere that was taken here for some reason.  Most of us here are having an open discussion about what makes us awkward about social interaction and how to deal with it.

I'd say +2 WIS

It's my fault for referencing a sensitive issue in the past in an open thread. I wanted to discuss sexual taboos and realized this thread may not be the place to do so, but made the mistake of referencing the reasoning behind my thought.

[Machete]

Well, nothing new. I insensitively stated a reference regarding a topic that happened to elicit emotional responses from a person or two who took offense to it, so I later apologized. Same drill.

 

It is a thread for "weirdos" anyway. Understandably weird topics surface every now and then.

 

I suppose my biggest mistake then was not grasping the concept of "safe space" in its entirety. I didn't do my research. A public forum where one is supposed to agree with everything that the person with the most dominant presence says seems patronizing to me, and a concept I am having trouble wrapping my mind around to be honest. Even our model Autistic citizen Atrinum (who I would nominate in a heartbeat if we ever need an ambassador to the NTs) considers multiple viewpoints on a controversial topic in the ASD Safe Space thread, instead of just automatically jumping to "LYNCH THAT CRACKER NT PIG" (which I guess would have been acceptable since it was labeled "safe space"). From my understanding, a "safe space" is a place free from hate and judgement, and I thought having a separate "safe space" within NF, which is one of the most well-moderated forums I have ever been on to begin with, is a bit redundant.

 

But to address my previous statement, if it is supposed to be invalidated because of one's alleged lack of experience in at least one aspect, one could say that the assertion that they are nothing alike may also be invalidated, since the person who denied the likeness probably has no experience being a pedophile either. But I wouldn't know that, because I have no idea what every person here has lived through. Maybe some people don't feel the need to insert a plug specifying what they like to fuck every few posts. Maybe some people may turn out to have a lot more sexual experience than we think they do, with both sexes, voluntarily or otherwise. Maybe some people don't like to define themselves with a letter or a label, because they believe it only serves to limit oneself and tends to foster an us vs. them mentality.

 

I do think I know why the comment was construed as offensive (and that's why I apologized): the aggravated party probably subscribes to a belief that pedophiles are bad people, and the mere mention of the term elicits strong negative emotional responses (which is precisely why anti-gay activists utilize the comparison). And I made the 'semantics' statement because I myself make an attempt not to subscribe to labels like queer and straight, autistic and NT, pedophile and not, that merely divide us into warring factions. I try to see us all as members of one tribe--human beings--just trying to individually get through life despite all the personal problems we are dealt. I don't think a pedophile is necessarily a bad person, I think a pedophile is just a person whose sexual desires happen to be inconsistent with the standards that society has set in the present. It happens to be illegal to have intercourse with minors in most countries, just like it happens to be illegal to have intercourse with people of the same sex in some. So you conform to society and do what everyone else is doing--marry a person your age of the opposite sex just to avoid prison. But the law doesn't change what you are as a person, and you can't choose what you want to be attracted to; you can only choose to act upon it, whether it is breaking the law or current social customs. You can't "pray away the gay" in the same way you can't pray away being turned-on by schoolgirls. What makes a pedophile a bad person is raping children. However, rape, period, makes a bad person, regardless of victim age. Society just has a harsher punishment for it when the victim is a minor (stronger emotional response), probably in the same way some counties have a harsher penalty for same-sex rape (because of their views on homosexuality). But in the end it's all rape, and whether someone does it to a male, a female, a child, or an adult, it's all wrong.

[Hit]

You talk yourself in circles machete, and present assumptions to tear down as proof of your opinions. Every time i talk to you its like you act belligerent because its easier to win by attrition, rather than realise its not a fight its an explanation. But thats just me being frustrated by you.

The reason i told you to fuck off away from the lgbtq thread is very simple - you took a basic tenant of the movement (queer relationships are just as meaningful as hetero ones) and likened it to pedophilia (a relationship were one party is specifically being abused by the other) and implied you felt they were the same. If youd come in saying "love the sinner hate the sin" id have told you the same thing.

Some issues are up for debate, and not everyone has the same experience which means our discussions are gonna get 3D by design. But asking us to validate ourselves, to justify our relationships and lives, is not acceptable in that space.

[Artinum]

I'm afraid I entirely agree with Machete on this one, and your reaction is exactly the problem. For years religion in particular has pushed the idea that being gay is a choice, because that allows it to be a sin and justifies punishment of the "unclean". If being gay is not a choice, it means that it's God's will. And that doesn't make any sense, because God wouldn't want such things (it's amazing how often God's will matches the feelings and desires of his followers).

 

But we know it's not a choice. I would have chosen to be straight if it were - my life was complicated enough!

 

Machete's point is something I've struggled with myself. If we accept that sexual attraction to our own gender is not a choice, the same is surely necessarily true of sexual attraction to other non-standard things. Many people find foot fetishists rather odd, but it's not like they filled in a form. Some guys get a sexual thrill out of wearing women's undergarments (and they're often, if not usually, straight). We don't arrest people for this, because they can't really help it - and if it doesn't do any harm, so what?

 

Paedophilia is quite possibly no more a choice than homosexuality. If you're attracted to unusually young people, there's damn all you can do about that. It's not even that far from normal culture - youth has always been a powerful attraction. There's just an arbitrary point at which someone is legally too young, which doesn't even account for the different rates we mature. I was once hit on by a young man of fourteen. If he'd said he was sixteen, I wouldn't have been able to tell.

 

The issue is semantic but important. Being a paedophile is about the attraction, not necessarily following through with it. The latter is a choice, at least to some extent. The former is not. But paedophiles remain vilified and hated because of something they cannot control, not because of anything they've necessarily done. We only hear of the rapists and the porn collections. The others don't dare to express themselves, in just the same way that being openly gay not so long ago (and still today in some parts of the world) would be asking for violence and murder.

[Bekah]

Ty Artinum You said that much better than I could have. I agree entirely.

[joedog]

Thanks, Artinum. I'm not always good at communicating my thoughts on thorny topics. You've summed up very well what I've often thought.

[Rurik Harrgath]

Just a page or two ago we were carrying along merrily discussing the pitfalls of introverts coupling with extroverts and before that posting comics and jokes about the topic of the post.

 

How far we have fallen...

[Bekah]

Just a page or two ago we were carrying along merrily discussing the pitfalls of introverts coupling with extroverts and before that posting comics and jokes about the topic of the post.

 

How far we have fallen...

We will bounce back. No worries

[Bekah]

So for a non controversial topic change....what are your ideal jobs? Did they change dramatically as you grew older?

I am always pretty amazed at how many people understand themselves at a young age and are smart enough to structure their environment to support that. I was not one of them.

[Nubbins McGee]

I like working with my hands. I want to make STUFF. Hell, earlier tonight I put a bid in on a lathe on eBay.

Unfortunately, artisan craftsman is not a way to be financially stable. Plus, my interests change all the time. I have a whole basement full of guitars--some of which I made-- and I probably haven't spent 6 hours playing in the last year.

So I work a job I don't like, but pays extremely well and isn't hard so that I can have hobbies.

If we're playing the "what would I do if I won the lottery" game, I'd buy a farm and turn a barn into a giant workshop. Wood, metal, glass, automotive, and a big ass CNC machine all under one roof. I bet I wouldn't leave my property more than once a week, tops. Especially if I had a home gym and a pool. [emoji1]

[Rurik Harrgath]

Like Mr McGee I work a job I don't particularly care about that pays quite well and the time off is fantastic.  I'm off more than I work.

 

But if we're talking about dream jobs, I would be a national park warden/ranger or environmental impact officer for an energy company.  Something along those lines.

[Nubbins McGee]

Like Mr McGee I work a job I don't particularly care about that pays quite well and the time off is fantastic. I'm off more than I work.

But if we're talking about dream jobs, I would be a national park warden/ranger or environmental impact officer for an energy company. Something along those lines.

"Mr. McGee, don't make me angry, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

As a kid of the 70s and 80s that was the first thing I thought when I read your post.

The second thing I thought was "who the eff is Mr. McGee?". Then I realized you were talking about me. [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

McGee is not my real last name. In fact, Nubbins McGee was a nickname I had for a soldier that worked for me that nearly lost his fingers in the engine fan of a Humvee.

[Rurik Harrgath]

McGee is not my real last name. In fact, Nubbins McGee was a nickname I had for a soldier that worked for me that nearly lost his fingers in the engine fan of a Humvee.

 

Sounds painful.  I had my hand slammed in the turret on a LAV III once upon a time.  There's a lock there for a reason, and it's meant to be engaged when you're bombing across hilly terrain.

[Nubbins McGee]

I'm trying to think of the worst non-combat related injury I picked up in the service.

The partial parachute malfunction was certainly the scariest, and had me carried off the drop zone on a board with my head taped to it. The one that bothers me the most today though is probably when a guy in my platoon dropped a rail car ramp used for spanning the gap between rail cars on my hand. We were rail loading for Bosnia and it crushed some of my fingers flat.

Cold weather (like now) makes my hand HURT.

Edit: so maybe effed up hands are a common service related injury?

[Rurik Harrgath]

They have an uncanny ability of finding their way into places they shouldn't be, usually between two immovable hard objects.

 

I would say you're probably right.  Followed by effed up backs and/or knees.  I'm thankful I got out young enough to avoid the nastier pitfalls there.

[Nubbins McGee]

Guess who has a bad back and knees too?

That's repetitive stress stuff though, not something I can point to and say "that's what did it right there"

[Artinum]

I had a lazy ambition as a child to become an astronaut, as I loved space stuff (and still do). But mostly I had no idea. I was the awkward child who, when asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, could only shrug and ask "what have you got?"

 

My education was largely stalling for time while I figured out a career path. I followed mathematics because I was good at it, but I lost interest at degree level and did fairly poorly as a result. Computers have always appealed, but the switch from DOS based to Windows based programming kinda derailed my efforts in becoming a programmer.

 

I basically never had a career plan. I kept hoping one would appear but it never did. And finally, in my thirties, I've ended up in IT. I suppose it was inevitable.

[Bekah]

I wanted to be a doctor. Trouble with that was, being that my vision is crap, I could never actually DO it, so it just served as a reminder of my inadequacies as a person...bah! So I went through life wanting to do/be the impossible and then finally in my 20s got a degree in Sociology, bc the study of why we do what we do fascinates me, but individual people are baffling. So enter mostly useless degree for someone like me...and fast forward 10 years and I have never used it. Now here I am in my later 30s with no kind of career at all.

Nowadays, I want to teach yoga and help people get out of their own way when it comes to reaching their dreams.

[Silo]

I worked in a cookie/baked goods factory one summer in college (think Fig Newtons and Nutter Butters) and most of the machinists were missing a finger or two.

I work a job that I like just fine but I can't say it's particularly fulfilling. It's my favorite job so far but I work to pay my bills, not because I feel like I am serving a greater good. My pay and benefits are nice plus I have a great boss and fantastic employees. Not really anything to complain about.

My undergrad degree is in accounting. I picked it my junior year of high school and never changed. I'm pretty much a textbook case of setting up my career "perfectly"--entered college with a set major, planned out my classes to a T the first week and then followed exactly that plan until I graduated a term early, had accounting related jobs starting my first summer of college, worked for a Big 6 firm the last summer and accepted a job there before senior year started. But still, I'm not really emotionally invested in my career. If anything, I think my completely logical and unemotional handling of it is what has helped me get this far. That sounds completely robotic, doesn't it?

[Bekah]

I worked in a cookie/baked goods factory one summer in college (think Fig Newtons and Nutter Butters) and most of the machinists were missing a finger or two.

I work a job that I like just fine but I can't say it's particularly fulfilling. It's my favorite job so far but I work to pay my bills, not because I feel like I am serving a greater good. My pay and benefits are nice plus I have a great boss and fantastic employees. Not really anything to complain about.

My undergrad degree is in accounting. I picked it my junior year of high school and never changed. I'm pretty much a textbook case of setting up my career "perfectly"--entered college with a set major, planned out my classes to a T the first week and then followed exactly that plan until I graduated a term early, had accounting related jobs starting my first summer of college, worked for a Big 6 firm the last summer and accepted a job there before senior year started. But still, I'm not really emotionally invested in my career. If anything, I think my completely logical and unemotional handling of it is what has helped me get this far. That sounds completely robotic, doesn't it?

I think thats a good thing if you take the time outside of work to do things you love. I wish I would have done it the robotic way, at least then I could do things I love and still pay the rent.

[Nubbins McGee]

My undergrad degree is in accounting. I picked it my junior year of high school and never changed. I'm pretty much a textbook case of setting up my career "perfectly"--entered college with a set major, planned out my classes to a T the first week and then followed exactly that plan until I graduated a term early, had accounting related jobs starting my first summer of college, worked for a Big 6 firm the last summer and accepted a job there before senior year started. But still, I'm not really emotionally invested in my career. If anything, I think my completely logical and unemotional handling of it is what has helped me get this far. That sounds completely robotic, doesn't it?

 

I recently took a job at boutique audit and financial management firm.  We're only a couple of hundred people, but almost everyone there (and certainly all of the leadership--except me) is former big 4.  

 

Talk about a world I knew nothing about!  I don't even understand what most of our folks are doing day-in and day-out to pay my paycheck except at the highest of levels.  I actually went to my boss (who among the clusters of letters after his name, CPA is most prominent) earlier this week and said "I feel like I could be doing more around here."   

 

He was like "Nope, I'm happy with what your'e doing, I don't want you bogged down in what everyone else is doing."   So I guess I'm probably not ever going to get an in-depth education on it.