Political Correctness gone mad

[erosan]

No, I meant when it was considered acceptable to make openly discriminatory remarks and use language which excluded and belittled other people, especially minorities and especially those with less power (of various kinds).

I reckon minorities and those with less power also had some nasty names for majorities and those with more power. quoting Avenue Q (the Broadway show): "Bigotry has never been exclusively white" [emoji3]

[Oramac]

Acceptable language is different even in different English speaking countries

 

Quick question... I was wondering about the "holiday sharing gift tree"... assuming the OP is from the US, is this a result of the separation of church and state, assuming that the university is a public institution?  I've heard it said that in the US you have separation of C&S in theory, but not in practice, and in the UK we have it in practice, but not in theory.  Dunno how true that is. Does that mean that public institutions have to be particularly careful - walking a tightrope between acknowledging the religious holidays of the citizens they serve, but without appearing to acknowledge religion? Is this a challenge as well as/independent of any issues around political correctness? Genuine question... (not necessarily wanting to start a debate about different political cultures, the relation between church and state and so on....)

 

Valid points.  

 

Nevermind different countries, here in the US even a different region can be vastly different in acceptable language.  On top of that, certain dialects and accents can complicate the issue when one person has difficulty understanding the other.  At work, every day I talk to people from Hawaii to New York, Texas to the Arctic Circle.  It's amazing to me the different cues people use in different areas, without even realizing it, it seems.  

 

As for the Christmas Tree vs Holiday tree thing, fun fact time: Separation of Church and State is never mentioned in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence.  In fact, if one reads the Federalist Papers, the concept was brought forth to protect the Church from the State, not the State from the Church.  So for that university (or any university, really), technically, they don't have to really do anything.  There's no Federal Law that I'm aware of requiring them to keep religion separate from them or anything they do. That being said, given the misinterpretation of political correctness, as you pointed out, most universities and other schools choose to go the "cause least offense" route, whether they need to or not.  Or really whether it's practical or not.  

[bigm141414]

Valid points.  

 

Nevermind different countries, here in the US even a different region can be vastly different in acceptable language.  On top of that, certain dialects and accents can complicate the issue when one person has difficulty understanding the other.  At work, every day I talk to people from Hawaii to New York, Texas to the Arctic Circle.  It's amazing to me the different cues people use in different areas, without even realizing it, it seems.  

 

As for the Christmas Tree vs Holiday tree thing, fun fact time: Separation of Church and State is never mentioned in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence.  In fact, if one reads the Federalist Papers, the concept was brought forth to protect the Church from the State, not the State from the Church.  So for that university (or any university, really), technically, they don't have to really do anything.  There's no Federal Law that I'm aware of requiring them to keep religion separate from them or anything they do. That being said, given the misinterpretation of political correctness, as you pointed out, most universities and other schools choose to go the "cause least offense" route, whether they need to or not.  Or really whether it's practical or not.  

 

 

Some Supreme court cases: 

 

McCollum vs Board of Education (1948) 

Engel vs Vitale (1962)

Stone vs Graham (1980)

 

Court found that religious practices in public schools violated the establishment clause in the constitution. So there is precedent for public institutions. Now private institutions are a different matter entirely.

 

 

Edit to add that this is just clarification material. That such decisions on the constitutionality of religious practices in public settings has a long debate history in the US.

 

Edit edit: since i have gone down the rabbit hole of wikipedia on this, the Court uses two tests these days to determine the constitutionality - the secular purpose and the primary effect. Whether the purpose of something can be secular in nature and also whether that purpose is to promote religion. There was a case in 1985 in Alamaba that the state house forced a moment of prayer before meetings. While it passed the secular purpose test, it was found to have the effect of promoting a religion and was ruled unconstitutional.  

 

You can pretty much spend an entire lifetime researching and debating this topic. 

[Oramac]

Court found that religious practices in public schools violated the establishment clause in the constitution. So there is precedent for public institutions. Now private institutions are a different matter entirely.

 

You can pretty much spend an entire lifetime researching and debating this topic. 

 

Not sure I agree with the Court on that one, but that's a topic for another thread.  And as you said, it can (and probably will) be debated until the end of time.  Possibly longer than that.  

[Hit]

 

 

You mean back when people had a thicker skin and gave the speaker the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping down their throat if they said something disagreeable?  Yea, I'll take how it was.  

 

so im to judge you by your intentions and not your actions now? nah mate, if i read you as being a prick ima let you know. you can correct me on your intention after the fact if you will, but letting shit slide because "well they probably mean well" isn't exactly helping anyone but the ignorant.

 

case in point - the very first thread i came into on these boards was basically pointing and laughing at trans women. fuck knows what they were thinking, but the things they were saying were incredibly harmful. so i did something about it.

 

political correctness isn't about being offended or wanting to fuck with everything - its about having some goddamn empathy and seeing people as people.

 

 

 

I reckon minorities and those with less power also had some nasty names for majorities and those with more power. 

 

i dont want to roll out the "power + privilege" argument, so please dont make me. 

 

awww fuck it okay lets do this! example time:

 

lets say you have an office job, and you're middle management. you are a [insert majority here]. across the hall is another middle manager, a [insert minority here]. you are both applying for the same promotion. your boss is also a [insert majority here] by pure coincidence, and sometimes when you two run into each other at the water cooler he makes a joke about [insert minority here], and because fun is fun, you laugh with him. its just between you two [insert majority here] no harm no foul. 

 

the other [insert minority here] middle manager also uses the water cooler, but they sometimes run into the bosses PA there, who is also [insert minority here]. they sometimes make a joke about [insert majority here] because fun is fun and its just between [insert minority here] no harm no foul. 

 

now its promotion time! your boss, who jokes about [insert minority here] probably has some ingrained biases towards said group, and applies that thinking to the [insert minority here] middle manager. then he turns to you, a fellow [insert majority here] which he considers just fine (and typically speaking, NORMAL) - guess who gets the job?

tldr - when a person in a position of power holds and expresses bias against people with no power, the result is far more damaging and real than when a person in a position of no power holds and express a bias towards someone in a position of power. 

 

tldr2 - i can hate my boss all i want, but that wont get him fired. if my boss hates me on the other hand...

[humanperson832]

The thing that really bugs me is political correctness for the sake of political correctness--that is, rephrasing things/whatever to be politically correct in a situation where it's unlikely that anyone would be offended.

 

The problem with this is that you don't know what people have the capacity to be offended by. Which is to say, you don't know every single detail about every single person's history that you'll ever be around. If you're sitting around speaking with colleagues and someone makes a joke that could be perceived as off-color but you just assume no one will be offended, you may not be aware that someone in the group grew up in a particular faith, or with a parent whose ethnicity is not immediately obvious, or a close cousin with some kind of medical condition that's mocked often, or whatever else it could be.

 

See where the rub might be? TLDR; the "unlikely for anyone to be offended" judgment call is not yours (or mine, or anyone's) to make, especially around people you don't know very well.

[Lalie Fanyarendil]

The problem with this is that you don't know what people have the capacity to be offended by. Which is to say, you don't know every single detail about every single person's history that you'll ever be around. If you're sitting around speaking with colleagues and someone makes a joke that could be perceived as off-color but you just assume no one will be offended, you may not be aware that someone in the group grew up in a particular faith, or with a parent whose ethnicity is not immediately obvious, or a close cousin with some kind of medical condition that's mocked often, or whatever else it could be.

 

See where the rub might be? TLDR; the "unlikely for anyone to be offended" judgment call is not yours (or mine, or anyone's) to make, especially around people you don't know very well.

 

True, but the only way to make ABSOLUTELY sure that I never even potentially offend anybody with something I say is never to say anything at all. The only way I can make ABSOLUTELY sure that nobody is angry that they are not included in XYZ display is to not have a display. I think that there has to be a way to judge that something will probably not offend most people. Otherwise I can't interact with anybody on any level. For example, I know that there is a very high chance that somebody would be offended if I make a racial joke, so I don't do it. My experience thus far has been that nobody has been offended when I make a Darth Baras joke, so I feel like it's reasonable for me to conclude that most people will not be offended by a Darth Baras joke--although they will be confused if they're not familiar with SWTOR. At the same time, it is also reasonable for me to try to be aware of conversational clues that would indicate that a Darth Baras joke would be frowned upon.

 

I am not saying that we should not try to be inclusive and conscious of people's feelings. Both of these things are most excellent and non-heinous. We should do them. I'm saying that surely there is a way to determine what most people will find acceptable--and to celebrate these things in a way that those we've accidentally excluded will feel welcome to alert us of the exclusion. Since I can't know everyone's feelings I cannot guarantee that I will never upset anybody. However, I CAN do the next-best thing--I can be welcome to and pay attention to input when I've unknowingly been exclusive, and I can be genuinely apologetic when I've offended someone.

 

Of course, I'm an imperfect mortal, so I may not always meet those standards, but I'm trying.

 

The TLDR above is one of the reasons that I do not make jokes that involve race, ethnicity, disability, or other issues that I know have higher potential to offend someone. Nor do I joke much at all with people I don't know well.

[kaelvan]

What I never hear people getting upset with is the word Eskimo in "Winter Wonderland". Depending on what part of Alaska you go, you could be cursed out for calling the Alaskan natives that.

[Eleanorsbee]

I think the problem really stems from people believing they have some given right to "not" be offended.

 

I like the excerpt from that Steve Hughes comedy sketch ... check it out on youtube :-

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Political correction is the oppression of our intellectual movement so no one says anything anymore just in case anyone else get’s offended.

"What happens if you say that and someone gets offended?"

"Well they can be offended, can’t they? What’s wrong with being offended? When did stick and stones may break my bones stop being relevant? Isn’t that what you teach children? That's what you teach toddlers, for God's sake."

"He called me an idiot!"
"Don’t worry about it, he’s a d***."

Now you have people going, “I was offended, I was offended and I have rights!†Well so what, be offended, nothing happened. Grow up. Deal with it.

"I was offended!"
"I don’t care!"

Nothing happens when you’re offended. “I went to the comedy show and the comedian said something about the lord, and I was offended, and when I woke up in the morning, I had leprosy.†Nothing Happens.

“I want to live in a democracy but I never want to be offended again.â€
"Well you’re an idiot."

Being offended is subjective. It has everything to do with you as an individual or a collective, or a group or a society or a community. Your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs. What offends me may not offend you. I’m offended when I see boy bands for God's sake.

- Steve Hughes.

[Obitim]

We used to have this copper who would go round, wish everyone a Merry Christian Holiday and then turn round 3 times, sing Happy Birthday and run away shouting the Monty Python Dead Parrot Sketch...

 

he was definitely PC gone mad!

[Oramac]

I think the problem really stems from people believing they have some given right to "not" be offended.

 

I like the excerpt from that Steve Hughes comedy sketch ... check it out on youtube :-

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Political correction is the oppression of our intellectual movement so no one says anything anymore just in case anyone else get’s offended.

"What happens if you say that and someone gets offended?"

"Well they can be offended, can’t they? What’s wrong with being offended? When did stick and stones may break my bones stop being relevant? Isn’t that what you teach children? That's what you teach toddlers, for God's sake."

"He called me an idiot!"

"Don’t worry about it, he’s a d***."

Now you have people going, “I was offended, I was offended and I have rights!†Well so what, be offended, nothing happened. Grow up. Deal with it.

"I was offended!"

"I don’t care!"

Nothing happens when you’re offended. “I went to the comedy show and the comedian said something about the lord, and I was offended, and when I woke up in the morning, I had leprosy.†Nothing Happens.

“I want to live in a democracy but I never want to be offended again.â€

"Well you’re an idiot."

Being offended is subjective. It has everything to do with you as an individual or a collective, or a group or a society or a community. Your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs. What offends me may not offend you. I’m offended when I see boy bands for God's sake.

- Steve Hughes.

 

 

I was going to type out a big long reply, but this works just as well.  I'm not going to stop talking just because it might offend someone.  If something I say offends you, I'm sorry, but as was pointed out, nothing really happens.  

[Hit]

I find this line of thinking really funny, since this thread started with people being offended at calling a decorated pine tree a holiday sharing tree and not a christmas tree.

Maybe you could take some of that logic, and stop being so offended at people trying to be more PC?

[Oramac]

I find this line of thinking really funny, since this thread started with people being offended at calling a decorated pine tree a holiday sharing tree and not a christmas tree.

Maybe you could take some of that logic, and stop being so offended at people trying to be more PC?

 

I think you misunderstand.  We (or at least I) are not offended by anyone trying to be more PC.  I simply don't understand why someone would alter their own life in order to avoid something that may or may not even happen.  

 

If you want to be PC, more power to you.  I, on the other hand, don't want to be PC.  I certainly don't try to offend anyone, and in many situations I definitely watch what I say, but I'm also not going to significantly alter my life because other people can't control their emotions.  

 

And therein lies the crux of the situation: emotion.  We're trying to apply logic to what is ultimately an emotional response and is therefore not always logical.  

[SevenofSeven]

I live by what my Dad taught me.

Think what you like but don't say it.

No matter what I might think about whatever, no need to say it and needlessly upset people.

[humanperson832]

I think you misunderstand.  We (or at least I) are not offended by anyone trying to be more PC.  I simply don't understand why someone would alter their own life in order to avoid something that may or may not even happen.  

 

If you want to be PC, more power to you.  I, on the other hand, don't want to be PC.  I certainly don't try to offend anyone, and in many situations I definitely watch what I say, but I'm also not going to significantly alter my life because other people can't control their emotions.  

 

And therein lies the crux of the situation: emotion.  We're trying to apply logic to what is ultimately an emotional response and is therefore not always logical.  

 

If being a compassionate human being and not perpetuating harmful assumptions through language makes me "not always logical," then I guess I'll take that. Also, I'm not altering my life. I'm just altering some of the words and descriptors I use.

[Noname123]

"Happy Holidays" and generic Seasons Greetings span from November to Jan and cover ALL Holidays from Thanksgiving, to New Years, to Christmas to Hanukkah to the Epiphany to Kwanzaa. I don't understand why you wouldn't just roll it all up into two words rather than going down the list. Maybe I'm just lazy.

 

If you want to wish someone a Merry Christmas that's fine, but I know a lot of people on my FB sharing the keep the Christ in Christmas images that would look at me like I had three heads if I wished them a Happy Hanukkah. Keep your faith and wish people well based on it if it makes you happy, but if you do, I'd say keep an open mind to what others believe in too and say thanks when you're wished a happy holiday you don't celebrate too. 

 

To keep it easier,  no celebrations for anyone, I'm gonna go Grinch. 

[Dradis]

 

 

To keep it easier,  no celebrations for anyone, I'm gonna go Grinch. 

 

No way, all year celebrations for everyone is the easiest and fairest

[Roldanis]

No way, all year celebrations for everyone is the easiest and fairest

 

I don't know if my liver could handle that...

[Oramac]

If being a compassionate human being and not perpetuating harmful assumptions through language makes me "not always logical," then I guess I'll take that. Also, I'm not altering my life. I'm just altering some of the words and descriptors I use.

 

Again, misunderstanding.  Taking offense at something is emotional, and therefore not always logical.  Taming your own language and having compassion are both quite logical.  

[DrVornoff]

I think you misunderstand.  We (or at least I) are not offended by anyone trying to be more PC.  I simply don't understand why someone would alter their own life in order to avoid something that may or may not even happen.  

 

If you want to be PC, more power to you.  I, on the other hand, don't want to be PC.  I certainly don't try to offend anyone, and in many situations I definitely watch what I say, but I'm also not going to significantly alter my life because other people can't control their emotions.  

 

And therein lies the crux of the situation: emotion.  We're trying to apply logic to what is ultimately an emotional response and is therefore not always logical.  

 

To be frank, this time twelve years ago I was a miserable, cynical narcissist.  I made few efforts at making friends, I demanded the world conform to me, and I procrastinated endlessly.  In that time I've made vast sweeping changes to my lifestyle and who I am as a person.  Despite my Asperger's and introverted tendencies, I'm now a professional performing artist.  I stopped being a stand-offish dick about the fact that I'm an atheist.  And I'm here because I've started to take my health much more seriously than I ever have in my life previously.

 

Given all of those changes I've made to my life, changing a few nouns here and there is hardly what I would consider asking a lot.  And if someone wants to take it even further than me, I really can't bring myself to care.  My fuck garden was raided by fuck gophers some time ago.  I list political correctness in the same category as furries: more drama is caused by its opponents than its supporters.

[erosan]

I list political correctness in the same category as furries: more drama is caused by its opponents than its supporters.

R'amen.

[Evicious]

Nowhere else on the internet (that I am currently aware of) could such a respectful and diversely-opinionated thread be found than here, on NF.

 

Excellent points have been made on all sides; personally, the common thread I see stitching it all together is the unspoken concept of the Golden Rule - "Treat others as you wish to be treated." 

 

Some wish to be spoken to gently, and so they speak. Some wish to be spoken to honestly, and so they do. 

 

NFers win the World Holiday Spirit award (that I've just made up).

 

[Rookiebeotch]

I just pooped. I was holding it in all day. I figured this was a good thread to share this information.

Also, I yelled, "Shut the fuck up, Santa!" yesterday. Several times. My roommate has a giant robotic motion activated singing and dancing Santa in the garage. The closed garage door had the Santa sensor permanently tripped. I threatened to stab Santa. I didn't make the threat to my roommate, I threatened roboSanta directly.

[Oramac]

Nowhere else on the internet (that I am currently aware of) could such a respectful and diversely-opinionated thread be found than here, on NF.

 

Excellent points have been made on all sides; personally, the common thread I see stitching it all together is the unspoken concept of the Golden Rule - "Treat others as you wish to be treated." 

 

Some wish to be spoken to gently, and so they speak. Some wish to be spoken to honestly, and so they do. 

 

NFers win the World Holiday Spirit award (that I've just made up).

 

Well said! 

[Bookworm_Tess]

Except I aint Christian. It happens a lot, you see.