LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[GamingPlenty]

That's because it's convenient. Most people nowadays understand the concept of homosexuality, but start talking about a female to male transgender homoromantic asexual and they get confused for some reason. Labels only go so far.

 

i've found that when people don't use the labels and just explain it, they get less confused looks from other people. i once knew someone who would say they preferred sex with men and relationships with women. i think that's easier for most people to understand than to say heterosexual homoromantic. i guess because all these labels are new to them and having hetero and homo next to each other is a bit of an oxymoron for them.

[Teirin]

Hi all, I'm really glad to see the kind of conversations that are happening here.  I'm a gay man, president of the GLBT organization at my college and involved in the community in a few other ways.  I bet many of us have noticed or experienced a lack of openness or open hostility toward GLB people in similar communities, to say nothing of how trans* people are treated, so this thread is great to see.  Hope I'll be seeing everyone around.

 

Welcome :-)

 

Just wanted to stop in and say hey and that this seems like a great thread

I got married to my wife on Halloween last year, it was the struggle to feel happy about my wedding photos that got me heading towards sorting myself out. Alas I kept putting it off until the beginning of this month. I was lazy. But I'm getting it done now, no quitting. 

My wife and i had been together 8 years before we were able (laws allowing) to get married. Maybe I am just lucky but we have only ever come across one person who had an issue with our relationship or our sexuality. Unfortunately it was my drug addled brother. But he was relatively easy to cut out of our lives. Other than him, we have been surrounded by extremely supportive people. It's wrapped us in a little bubble. Even some of our extremely religious (I mean, so pious every other sentence out of their mouths are gospels) have been nothing but loving to us. 

In fact the only thing that anyone has been difficult with, is helping me lose weight. Everyone I know loves to eat. And if you aren't eating all the time, something must be wrong with you. Trying to explain myself for weight loss is harder than ever having to come out as a lesbian to anyone. 

Go figure. 

 

 

That's simultaneously encouraging and depressing.  It's wonderful that your family and people around you are so supportive!  Hope they can learn to extend that support to help you lose weight as well.

 

i've found that when people don't use the labels and just explain it, they get less confused looks from other people. i once knew someone who would say they preferred sex with men and relationships with women. i think that's easier for most people to understand than to say heterosexual homoromantic. i guess because all these labels are new to them and having hetero and homo next to each other is a bit of an oxymoron for them.

 

That's a rather good point.

[night-wren]

 

 

i've found that when people don't use the labels and just explain it, they get less confused looks from other people. i once knew someone who would say they preferred sex with men and relationships with women. i think that's easier for most people to understand than to say heterosexual homoromantic. i guess because all these labels are new to them and having hetero and homo next to each other is a bit of an oxymoron for them.

 

You have a point; I've heard of similar experiences. On the other hand, being able to point to a label and say "See, there's a word for it! I'm not making this up. It is A Real Thing" has a power of its own. Maybe it's a difference between identifying by a completely different term, like asexual, as opposed to identifying by terms that they already think they understand, like heterosexual homoromantic.

 

YMMV?

[Teirin]

You have a point; I've heard of similar experiences. On the other hand, being able to point to a label and say "See, there's a word for it! I'm not making this up. It is A Real Thing" has a power of its own. Maybe it's a difference between identifying by a completely different term, like asexual, as opposed to identifying by terms that they already think they understand, like heterosexual homoromantic.

 

YMMV?

 

It's the difference between finding that label for yourself and explaining it to others?  Especially those who, as Hilionsoul said, have never put any thought into identity or sexuality and have never considered that anyone else might. 

 

Not everyone is going to feel that they need a label but they're the most amazing thing for others.  For me, finding out about asexuality made all the difference.

[Candace Koller]

I'm of the mind that people should do what's best for them. If a label fits and someone identifies with it then great, but I don't believe anyone should feel they have to have one. Also they shouldn't be made to feel that having one is a bad thing either. Some it helps to have a group they can identify with and some it helps to feel unique and beyond labels.

[Thrillho]

[Varelse]

It's the difference between finding that label for yourself and explaining it to others?  Especially those who, as Hilionsoul said, have never put any thought into identity or sexuality and have never considered that anyone else might. 

 

Not everyone is going to feel that they need a label but they're the most amazing thing for others.  For me, finding out about asexuality made all the difference.

 

I like labels to explain myself - until I don't know about demisexuality, asexuality, whateversexual whateverromantic, etc. I felt anxious because of not knowing what the f*ck I were. Know I don't know either, but it's simpler. I know that there should be a set of labels which eventually could explain what I feel and what I am, and this is so calming.

[Thrillho]

I'm a little weird about labels, just because whenever I got into a 'discussion' on the Internet, nearly always from a position of interest and curiosity, people (particularly trans people) started throwing out 'cis' VERY CLEARLY as an insult / derogatory term, and when I asked what it meant they said it was just another example of cisprivilege / male superiority that I didn't even NEED to know what common words meant.  It took a while to make it through the hostility. 

[Varelse]

I don't know why all collective that has been marginalized on the past repeats ALWAYS the same errors.

[ColoQ]

I'm a little weird about labels, just because whenever I got into a 'discussion' on the Internet, nearly always from a position of interest and curiosity, people (particularly trans people) started throwing out 'cis' VERY CLEARLY as an insult / derogatory term, and when I asked what it meant they said it was just another example of cisprivilege / male superiority that I didn't even NEED to know what common words meant.  It took a while to make it through the hostility. 

I hesitate to agree that this is "privilege." My experience is not your experience. If I have lacked a context or a requirement for such knowledge: it isn't privilege, its that my experience is different from yours. 

 

By way of example, I can't fault my straight friends for not knowing the different terms associated with Gay culture. Is it straight privilege, that they are unaware of twinks, otters, bears, polar bears, chubs, cubs, Daddy's, and leathermen etc...?  They lacked a context or need to be aware of such terms. 

Another example is I grew up in a white upper-middle-class family, my wife grew up in a poor latino family. It was only after marrying her that I discovered a whole slew of terms and concepts I had never had context for. Terms for "selling out" her race: White-washed. Term for the Latino guys (mostly illegal immigrants) who hang out at high schools or convenience stores looking to pickup / knock up / marry an american teenager most usually to get / keep a green card: a Corner Jose.  It is *SHOCKING* the shit I didn't know, really.  Is that privilege? Not really, I just never had a context or need to to learn it... Until the day that I did....

[Metriosity]

Labels are just people's way of filing things neatly away. Nice and easy to point at and say "Ahhh yes, that one." 

I get told all the time that I am "A bad lesbian." by friends who identify themselves as straight. They seem to think that I don't fit what their view of a gay woman is supposed to be. Supposedly I am supposed to love clubbing (I don't.) I'm supposed to be a "crazy feminist and hate men." (I don't) I'm supposed to plan to attend Pride every year like its Christmas (Nope) and I'm supposed to be a Melissa Etheridge Fan (I'm not.) 

I know they don't mean to be offensive to anyone. But they have an image in their head about what a lesbian is supposed to be and I don't tick most of the boxes and it leaves them a little uncertain about who I am. What they can say to me. But over time, labels fall away and I stop being gay and become just me. 

The funniest experience I had was when my Mom told my Aunt that I was gay, while we were sitting having a coffee one day. My Aunt replies "Well I always knew you were gay, you wear jeans all the time." 

I burst out laughing and pointed to her denim shirt she was wearing and said "Well what does that make you then?" The look of confusion on her face as she realized that a pre conceived idea she had held was suddenly expanded to include her was incredible. After that she never made any generalized comments. 

Some people love labels. They love giving them, they love being them. I personally don't want a definitive label slapped on my forehead. But if it makes someone feel at ease to say "Ok, yup, thats a lesbian." then fine. Go ahead. As long as it brings them some comfort to put me in a little mental draw then I'm ok with that. 

[Candace Koller]

Labels are just people's way of filing things neatly away. Nice and easy to point at and say "Ahhh yes, that one." 

I get told all the time that I am "A bad lesbian." I know they don't mean to be offensive to anyone. But they have an image in their head about what a lesbian is supposed to be and I don't tick most of the boxes and it leaves them a little uncertain about who I am. What they can say to me. But over time, labels fall away and I stop being gay and become just me. 

 

 

This is why I don't like labels but if it helps other people find comfort to fit into one then I'm glad it works for them. I think it would be impossible for anyone to just not use them completely but I try to not have preconceptions about the labels if I can. Ignorance oftentimes makes that difficult though.

[GamingPlenty]

yeah, that's definitely the downside to labels. i was having dinner with my brother and his girlfriend when he randomly said "do you think you're gay because i made you do boy stuff growing up?" boy stuff to him just meant video games and lego. and he didn't make me do any of that stuff, i just wanted to do it as well. then his girlfriend started talking about what a tomboy she used to be and he shut up.

 

the whole concept of your interests having anything to do with your sexuality is bizarre.

[Hit]

 

 

Is that privilege? Not really

 

or yes really. its not just being unaware of something, its being unaware that these people face a struggle and not having to care. we all have privilege like this, it would be impossible not too, but thats why the catch-cry is "check your privellege". Basically, it means be aware of what your race, class, gender (and ill add 'passing' here for our trans friends) and sexuality is letting you get away with not having to worry about.

 

this was never meant to be a silencing tactic (oh you have privilege so shut up) but more to encourage everyone to take time and look at their lives critically. to ask themselves why they never thought about the struggles of others and then to let those people who face struggle to speak up on it.  

 

you might not feel privileged, because we as a society have a nice way of looking up rather than looking down. hence the need to check it from time to time.

[Thrillho]

I was checking it.  Very explicitly. I was perfectly aware "these people" faced a huge struggle, and I wanted to learn more.  I was basically walking up to an information booth, asking for information, and being punched for not already having that information.  

 

Eventually, I found a few friends online who were open to actually having conversations with me, and I learned a lot.  Just goes to show, you can't judge a group based on it's loudest members.

[TyrantLizard]

I was checking it.  Very explicitly. I was perfectly aware "these people" faced a huge struggle, and I wanted to learn more.  I was basically walking up to an information booth, asking for information, and being punched for not already having that information.  

 

I felt compelled to respond to this, because this is something that happens a lot. People who appear to represent some kind of minority or misunderstood group are expected to act as representatives or educators; they're expected to politely and patiently explain their own particular subculture or life choices or backgrounds for the benefit of other people.  

 

It can be a shitty situation for them. It's easy to get sick of answering the same questions over and over again, many of which can be insulting and hurtful even if they're not intended that way. It's easy to get tired of being the representative, the teacher, when you never signed up for that role. And at the same time it's easy to feel this sense of obligation, like they have to perform this duty in order to help advance the fortunes of their group. If they don't want to do it, they often get very hostile reactions.

 

The bottom line, for me, is that it's never okay to assume that it's someone else's responsibility or obligation to educate you on their background, culture, sexuality, etc. If you want to learn, that's awesome - but seek out the members of that group who have signaled that they want to be educators or ambassadors: the ones who've started blogs, or written books, or go on talk shows, or give talks in public libraries. Don't treat people like an information booth unless they've hung out a sign.

[Thrillho]

I don't think you're aiming that specifically at me, but I did seek out members of the group who had signalled that they wanted to be educators and ambassadors.  I would never just message a friend on Facebook and go, "Hey, you're gay, please tell me about X, Y and Z..."  These are people who CONSTANTLY, LOUDLY and VOCALLY discuss ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than LGBT issued, in a [sAFESPACE] thread specifically designed for this sort of thing.  

 

As I have seen it, the people who "hang out the signs" either fall into two categories... labels, if you will: "kicked like a dog by the world, and righteously standing up for themselves and others" which is awesome (the second part, at least) but not very conducive to an educational discourse, and, well... regular people who just want to be helpful. 

[GamingPlenty]

i've met people like that before. they talk about LGBT issues with other LGBT people and if anyone who doesn't fall into that category tries to talk about it they instantly dismiss them, rather rudely. they tend to be the ones to use the word "privilege" as a way to make that person feel bad. i instantly want nothing to do with those types of people. it's not their job to educate but they also don't have to be so hostile.

[Thrillho]

Which was ironic, because I DID fall into those categories... they just didn't know. 

 

Sorry if I got cranky for a few posts there.

[Hit]

If you didnt know what cis meant, you didnt fall into a category that such transfolk would care about

Or more likely (when people dont know the word cis) they assumed you were cis and hence the enemy.

Most people are jerks, and some jerks just happen to also belong to gender/sexual minorites.

[Thrillho]

90% of people give the other 10% a bad name, as my dad likes to say.

[Bekah]

people suck & labels are for boxes. I wish everyone would just look for the similarities in everyone else and themselves (myself included...we are all a work in progress right?)

we all have blood, and intestines and eyes and ears and noses and smiles...so there we are

[fleaball]

i've met people like that before. they talk about LGBT issues with other LGBT people and if anyone who doesn't fall into that category tries to talk about it they instantly dismiss them, rather rudely. they tend to be the ones to use the word "privilege" as a way to make that person feel bad. i instantly want nothing to do with those types of people. it's not their job to educate but they also don't have to be so hostile.

Ugh, this. My freshman year of college I joined the LGBT and ally org on campus with two friends, one bi, one straight but super into activism. I was still trying to figure out where I was at the time. The three of us and the lone straight guy in the group were pretty much excluded and dismissed from discussions for not being gay enough. Silly me, I thought we were all on the same side.

[ColoQ]

or yes really. its not just being unaware of something, its being unaware that these people face a struggle and not having to care. we all have privilege like this, it would be impossible not too, but thats why the catch-cry is "check your privellege". Basically, it means be aware of what your race, class, gender (and ill add 'passing' here for our trans friends) and sexuality is letting you get away with not having to worry about.

 

this was never meant to be a silencing tactic (oh you have privilege so shut up) but more to encourage everyone to take time and look at their lives critically. to ask themselves why they never thought about the struggles of others and then to let those people who face struggle to speak up on it.  

 

you might not feel privileged, because we as a society have a nice way of looking up rather than looking down. hence the need to check it from time to time.

Now I'm not trying to get testy here, but .. no it isn't. Privilege is not having to be engaged in a struggle. Defining it in whole or in-part as "being unaware of someone else's struggle" seems specious at best, dogmatic at worst.

 

I.e. Straight people don't have to worry about being "out" at a job and whether or not that affects their ability to get raises, or stay employed.  Guys just out of college don't have to worry that starting a family / getting pregnant could be seen as a reason to discriminate against employing or paying them more. White folk don't have to worry that the color of their skin will get their papers checked in Arizona, or randomly pulled over by cops in middle class neighborhoods, or stopped and frisked in New York. White folk also don't have to worry about overcoming some perceived innate disadvantage based on their skin color (e.g. "Your a credit to your people" or "How'd you learn IT stuff in the ghetto" - actual things a black friend of mine has heard at work...) Cisfemales don't have to worry about "passing" or being taken seriously as a women if not passing, or being denied going to the restroom that matches their gender identity.

 

Believe me, I check my privilege a lot:  on the surface I am an educated, white, straight *cis male with money in a society that for stupid reasons seems to value educated white straight cismales with money over other expressions of humanity. But I'm constantly being checked on racial issues by being involved with a Latina, being bisexual means I have skin in the game on LGBTQ issues, most of my friends are ladies active in feminist communities, and I'm involved with several non-profits that interact with lower income folks. I have plenty of opportunities (requirements really with the folks I hang with and things I do) to check my privilege.

 

Edit:

* another example of privilege (and it being checked) at work: I put "cis" in as an afterthought. 

[Thrillho]