Dude Reads Like a Lady

[18ck]

Interesting thing on Twitter today - a woman mentioned her dating site profile specifies only interested in men who have read "at least five" books by women. This made a lot of potential suitors cross apparently. So, by show of hands, how many men of Nf can say they would pass this test? I'm interested to see if we have an unusually enlightened (or not) populace.

And double-x chromosome-having nerds... Do you have room for male writers on your shelf?

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

I had an English class in High School that by itself would have me in that club several times over. On my own I have read Gone With The Wind, The Thornbirds, The Good Earth, Truce at Bakura and (God help me it was bad) The Crystal Star. And that's just off the top of my head without having to think about it. 

[Raincloak]

Your thread title made me think you were going to ask about guys who read romances or chick lit.  In what way is reading books by women "reading like a lady"?  I'm sure there's a lot of male Harry Potter fans who'd take exception to that.

 

in answer to your second question: If we females didn't read any books written by men, we'd be missing out on most of world literature.  Until fairly recently, men were the only authors that got published.  So, yes, I read books by men.  I also read books by women.  I wouldn't date a guy who doesn't read, because such a person is not going to meet my intellectual preferences ... but I'm not going to nitpick what/who he reads, unless it's just technical manuals or right-wing shit.  I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the gender or name on the cover unless it's a name I recognize.  If the title, cover art and the blurb on the back sound interesting, and the first few pages aren't terrible, I'll read it.  The only reason to care about the sex (or other traits) of the person who wrote it is if you're analyzing the thing for literary study, and I rarely bother with that since I'm not in school any more.

 

A friend of mine posted a facespace challenge to "read only non-white-cis-male authors for a year."  I have a problem with that, because that means I'd be pledging not to read something.  I don't like being told not to read things.  I ignored this challenge.

[Raincloak]

(god damn double post)

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

How did I forget JK Rowling? That's seven right there.

[18ck]

How did I forget JK Rowling? That's seven right there.

Mm, a lot of men used her as a get-out-of-jail-free card. You have read others, though, right?

[18ck]

I had an English class in High School that by itself would have me in that club several times over. On my own I have read Gone With The Wind, The Thornbirds, The Good Earth, Truce at Bakura and (God help me it was bad) The Crystal Star. And that's just off the top of my head without having to think about it.

Oh right, that answers that. OK, you're free to go. 😀

I've only heard if the first two, I must admit. I don't think I'll bother with Crystal Star...

[18ck]

Your thread title made me think you were going to ask about guys who read romances or chick lit. In what way is reading books by women "reading like a lady"? I'm sure there's a lot of male Harry Potter fans who'd take exception to that.

Yes, you're right if course. I just like that song and the excuse to use it in a title seemed too good to pass up.

in answer to your second question: If we females didn't read any books written by men, we'd be missing out on most of world literature. Until fairly recently, men were the only authors that got published. So, yes, I read books by men. I also read books by women. I wouldn't date a guy who doesn't read, because such a person is not going to meet my intellectual preferences ... but I'm not going to nitpick what/who he reads, unless it's just technical manuals or right-wing shit. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the gender or name on the cover unless it's a name I recognize. If the title, cover art and the blurb on the back sound interesting, and the first few pages aren't terrible, I'll read it. The only reason to care about the sex (or other traits) of the person who wrote it is if you're analyzing the thing for literary study, and I rarely bother with that since I'm not in school any more.

A friend of mine posted a facespace challenge to "read only non-white-cis-male authors for a year." I have a problem with that, because that means I'd be pledging not to read something. I don't like being told not to read things. I ignored this challenge.

... Aaand you're also right, of course, that it's an easier question for women to answer in the affirmative than men. I only raised it because one dude's defense was basically: male & female authors sell in equal numbers ergo women are just as bad as men. No evidence produced and frankly it sounded unlikely.

Your friend's challenge sounds tediously point-scorey and I wouldn't have taken it either. Someone else I know did one that included movies, TV and music and knocked the time down to only 3 days. That seemed almost too easy in a way but then I don't watch much telly, am not v bothered about music and happen to be reading The Bookshop by Penelope Fitzgerald which I reckon will keep me busy for the next 5 days or so. But I'm not the sort to brag online so I ignored that one too.

[DarK_RaideR]

Agatha Christie, JK Rowling, Jane Eyre, Ayn Rand, Margaret Weiss and that's just from the top of my head. Books are books, regardless of the author's gender

[18ck]

Agatha Christie, JK Rowling, Jane Eyre, Ayn Rand, Margaret Weiss and that's just from the top of my head. Books are books, regardless of the author's gender

Jane Eyre isn't an author but I get the idea. Charlotte Bronte wrote it....? Or did you mean Jane Austen?

Anyway I share the sentiment that books are books regardless. Do you think it's really true for most people though? I ask out of interest and I promise not trying to hector anyone or air my feminist credentials (such as they are), but taking my own history as an example, I definitely read far more male authors than female. There's no problem at all with that of course - I'm selecting books I can relate to and so there are going to be more male, (and white, British, etc) authors than average, but there's nothing wrong with that and I bet it's true for most people. And God forbid we should try to fulfill some sort of equal opportunities reading quota - that would be a bloody awful world to live in. I do think it's a good thing to read other perspectives though, whether it's men reading women (in this case) or people from other backgrounds or with other political views, and this question has made me look at my habits a bit more.

I think I get quite a lot of women on my shelf (about 20% judging by Goodreads) but interestingly not much female fiction - 10 out of 12 books by women in the last year were nonfiction books. What does that mean? I've no idea.

Flipping the question onto race: I think I've only read about 20 black writers in my 46 years on earth, but mainly Americans and Africans. Ditto Asian writers - several from India, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc but I can only think of one Black British and three Asian British writers I've read off the top of my head, and that's pretty embarrassingly low really.

Gay and Trans writers - I've no idea. Unless the book is actually autobiographical I can't see how anyone can even be expected to know this without doing background research into the author's personal life and I'm just not that nosey.

I don't think I'll be going out of my way to choose books to fill any gaps but I found it an interesting question to ask myself anyway.

Also, I'm glad to see that out of the two male respondents so far, 100% are eligible for my twitter acquaintance's hand in marriage. I'll forward your details... 😁

[18ck]

Oh and Ayn Rand. Good lord. I've read two of hers. Why? Why didn't I gouge my eyes out after the first one to avoid any possible chance of accidentally reading a second? I would have missed out on a lot of good books since but it would have been worth it.

[DarK_RaideR]

Jane Eyre isn't an author but I get the idea. Charlotte Bronte wrote it....? Or did you mean Jane Austen?

Yeah, that one. Jane Eyre is the only one I've read by Charlotte Bronte, so I tend to get those two mixed up. You can tell the book left no lasting impression on me

 

Speaking of which, it makes sense that most of the stuff everyone's read is by male authors. For a long time, women wouldn't write or even get published. Many of them initially put out stuff under fake male names.

 

P.S. You can keep the contact info. I have an extremely low tolerance threshold for any kind of fanaticism. The "having read at least X books by female authors" requirement sounds too much for poor ol' me

[18ck]

Yeah, that one. Jane Eyre is the only one I've read by Charlotte Bronte, so I tend to get those two mixed up. You can tell the book left no lasting impression on me [emoji14]

Fair enough. I haven't read anything by any Bronte so you're one up on me.

Speaking of which, it makes sense that most of the stuff everyone's read is by male authors. For a long time, women wouldn't write or even get published. Many of them initially put out stuff under fake male names.

True enough, but most people read mainly newer books so I think this doesn't really account for the split. There are plenty of good women writers out there.

P.S. You can keep the contact info. I have an extremely low tolerance threshold for any kind of fanaticism. The "having read at least X books by female authors" requirement sounds too much for poor ol' me

OK, I'll respect your privacy. 😊

I'd normally agree about fanaticism but I think in this case - firstly - five is a very, very low bar, and - secondly - on a dating site, it's a pretty good way of filtering out people who read nothing at all or - even worse - nothing but Jeremy Clarkson books. I'd be a lot happier about my daughter using it in future as a potential boyfriend filtering criterion than - say - What car does he drive? or Does he wear the right clothes? or Is he a Scorpio? Or some stupid bullshit like that.

But that's all a few years away still, thank God.

[Raincloak]

Yeah I would be kinda wary of anyone who demands my "liberal cred" before we even date. Although maybe you have to be more upfront about your wishes online, to filter out idiots. I should give that some thought because I keep meaning to start online dating.

Anyways. The Bronte sisters did in fact publish under a pseudonym (Currer Bell) to pass as male, and Jo Rowling was advised to use her initials so boys would be willing to pick up her book. She didn't even have a middle name so she used her mother's. Hell, the woman going by "Snowdragon Icequeen" when she wrote her fanfic online got a neutral initialy name to publish "50 Shades of Grey" as a novel (and wow, did that ever sell...) In many genres the books are marketed as male authored or they just quietly don't tell you when the author is female, and you might not ever find out unless the book becomes a bestseller and someone chases down the author for interviews. At least according to The Industry, a lot of guys to this day are scared off by a female name on the cover, which is more wondersome to me than one oddball demanding her dates actually read some.

Btw, Bronte books are kind of gloomy and sentimentalist but Jane Austen (particularly "Pride and Prejudice") should be on every man's reading list, because it's eminently quotable, and more importantly, it contains some brilliant lessons on how to flirt.

[18ck]

At least according to The Industry, a lot of guys to this day are scared off by a female name on the cover, which is more wondersome to me than one oddball demanding her dates actually read some.

Isn't that kinda her point though? Why do women have to pretend not to be women when they set out as authors? Because some men aren't reading women. Like you mentioned Jo Rowling publishing as JK, but of course she's writing crime fiction now and the pseudonym she has picked is Robert, so it goes on, even at her level. And isn't that completely ridonkulous? I don't find it surprising that this Twitter person just decided she wanted someone who was more evolved than to judge a book by the (name on the) cover.

[sailsgoboom]

I think that's a decent filter-- books are a huge part of my life, so to date someone I need that person to share that as at least an occasional interest(although we by no means have to have similar tastes in genre, etc, as long as they can speak intelligently on what they like/don't like)-- plus 1) reading literature makes people more empathetic*, 2) male authors have a harder time writing female characters than the reverse**, 3) ergo having read books by female authors makes it more likely the guy is able to... understand me as a person and take me seriously.***

 

However, since dating sites are such shit-holes full of shitty sexist men (you would not believe the responses friends of mine get on a regular basis), I think I would be judging the response not so much based on numbers of female authors the guy read (because that's petty), but on his response to that as a preference.  For example, if a guy responded with "huh I never thought about that!  I can't think of the last book I read by a female author.  Do you have any you recommendations?", then that is an A+ response! 

 

* http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/novel-finding-reading-literary-fiction-improves-empathy/

**http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/the-mixed-results-of-male-authors-writing-female-characters/273641/

*** I've been happily dating a guy for over five years!  I have no idea if he could name 5 female authors that he's read, but I think it's likely-- he'd at least take my inquiry seriously.  The point is, we met in person first, so there's no need for an internet filter to discover that he's a genuine good fella.

[18ck]

I think that's a decent filter-- books are a huge part of my life, so to date someone I need that person to share that as at least an occasional interest(although we by no means have to have similar tastes in genre, etc, as long as they can speak intelligently on what they like/don't like)-- plus 1) reading literature makes people more empathetic*, 2) male authors have a harder time writing female characters than the reverse**, 3) ergo having read books by female authors makes it more likely the guy is able to... understand me as a person and take me seriously.***

 

However, since dating sites are such shit-holes full of shitty sexist men (you would not believe the responses friends of mine get on a regular basis), I think I would be judging the response not so much based on numbers of female authors the guy read (because that's petty), but on his response to that as a preference.  For example, if a guy responded with "huh I never thought about that!  I can't think of the last book I read by a female author.  Do you have any you recommendations?", then that is an A+ response! 

 

* http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/novel-finding-reading-literary-fiction-improves-empathy/

**http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/the-mixed-results-of-male-authors-writing-female-characters/273641/

*** I've been happily dating a guy for over five years!  I have no idea if he could name 5 female authors that he's read, but I think it's likely-- he'd at least take my inquiry seriously.  The point is, we met in person first, so there's no need for an internet filter to discover that he's a genuine good fella.

 

Wow, thanks - that's a good chunky answer. And yes, I'm glad online dating wasn't a thing when I was single. It all seems a bit unseemly.

The article about men writing women and vice versa was interesting. I totally agree about the lead role in Brazzaville Beach. That struck me (as a man, admittedly...) as an exceptionally well-written female character in a very, very good book. Madame Bovary... mmm, I'm a heretic in that regard I was irritated by her from beginning to end. My pet hate is when male characters are idiots and super-evolved women patiently explain things to them. "One Day" (David Nicholls) is a bit like that, as is "High Fidelity" (um... what's that guy called? Oh, Nick Hornby). Both pretty good books in all other respects, but you get the feeling that the writers are trying to position themselves on the right side of an argument and maybe ingratiate themselves to female readers and it's a bit tiresome.

Mind you, my two favourite writers, Kurt Vonnegut and PG Wodehouse don't really do characters at all, so...

[Raincloak]

My pet hate is when male characters are idiots and super-evolved women patiently explain things to them. ... you get the feeling that the writers are trying to position themselves on the right side of an argument and maybe ingratiate themselves to female readers and it's a bit tiresome.

 

You oughta stay away from Robert Heinlein then.  I didn't get the feeling he was ingratiating, I just got the feeling he had some whacked-out ideas (fantasies, perhaps) about the female psyche.  Apparently in the future, liberated women will feel free to sleep with their close relatives, coworkers, or anybody they want something from, and liberated men will simply enjoy it.

[18ck]

Chuckle... Is that Stranger in a Strange Land? That's full of crazy witterings like that IIRC...

[Raincloak]

Chuckle... Is that Stranger in a Strange Land? That's full of crazy witterings like that IIRC...

 

Time Enough for Love is made of it, to the nth degree.  Don't get me started.

 

Of the following characters who appear in story, guess which one author avatar Lazarus doesn't sleep with?  No, really.

 

1) a female slave he bought because he was outraged at the sight of her wearing a chastity belt

2) his own mother, in a time-travel jaunt

3) both of his "twin" sisters (generated via cloning himself and doubling the X-chromosome)

4) a sentient computer which downloaded to a human body because it wanted to fall in love

5) one of the nurse-guards tasked with babysitting him when he was in a geriatric, suicidal state

6) a provincial girl whom he adopted as a child

 

The pattern's also visible in several of his other books (Podkayne of Mars pops to mind), but I haven't read everything he wrote, I eventually concluded there were better things to read.  One of these years I'll probably flip through "Starship Troopers" for historical interest, but there's a lot of newer science fiction that is undoubtedly more enlightening.

[Sylvaa]

Interesting thing on Twitter today - a woman mentioned her dating site profile specifies only interested in men who have read "at least five" books by women. This made a lot of potential suitors cross apparently. So, by show of hands, how many men of Nf can say they would pass this test? I'm interested to see if we have an unusually enlightened (or not) populace.

And double-x chromosome-having nerds... Do you have room for male writers on your shelf?

 

I was also under the impression that this was going to be about men who enjoyed romance novels - disappointed. 

 

If the point of her requirement was to weed out men who don't read (I mean because you'd have to remember books you've read and  authors), then okay - I'll give it to her. Although I also would argue this was most likely met with books through high school / college. Other than that, does it really matter who wrote the book as long as it's good? I mean, one of those female authors could be E. L. James (that's right, I'm judging).....

 

As a woman, I have plenty of room for male writers on my shelf. I really don't care who the author is as long as I enjoy their writing. I'd argue that to an extent there is also a genre component to this requirement that isn't taken into account. If a guy only likes reading horror (for example) it might be harder to have read 5 female authors (excluding books from school). And I'd still rather date a guy who reads anything than one who doesn't read at all.

[sailsgoboom]

I was also under the impression that this was going to be about men who enjoyed romance novels - disappointed. 

 

If the point of her requirement was to weed out men who don't read (I mean because you'd have to remember books you've read and  authors), then okay - I'll give it to her. Although I also would argue this was most likely met with books through high school / college. Other than that, does it really matter who wrote the book as long as it's good? I mean, one of those female authors could be E. L. James (that's right, I'm judging).....

 

As a woman, I have plenty of room for male writers on my shelf. I really don't care who the author is as long as I enjoy their writing. I'd argue that to an extent there is also a genre component to this requirement that isn't taken into account. If a guy only likes reading horror (for example) it might be harder to have read 5 female authors (excluding books from school). And I'd still rather date a guy who reads anything than one who doesn't read at all.

 

I mean... Mary Shelley essentially created the horror genre, so it's not male-specfic by any means. 

 

If you've read more than 10 books in your life, it shouldn't be too hard for 5 of them to have been female authors (although remembering and naming them might be more difficult... my detail recall skills are not always great haha).

 

But yes to dating people who read, always a better time! (for me)

[18ck]

I mean... Mary Shelley essentially created the horror genre, so it's not male-specfic by any means.

If you've read more than 10 books in your life, it shouldn't be too hard for 5 of them to have been female authors

Right on!

[oldnews]

So, of course I had to open my Goodreads list and do the math. 41% of the books I've read were written by women. Not terrible. I imagine if I counted all my childhood books, Ann M. Martin would make that number skyrocket. (Though... I doubt she actually wrote them all?)

[Jothra]

Incidentally, if you're into Shelley at all, The Last Man is a good time. Mary Shelley had something of an aptitude for being incredibly bleak and creepy. I approve.