LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Shen]

FWIW I bet you rocked that eyeliner!

[Latsu Swagneel]

FWIW I bet you rocked that eyeliner!

I did. My girlfriend taught me. Oh, and we decided that I'm her Fæfriend.

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[Jett]

Oh my goodness! I'm so glad this thread exists!! I was looking at the womens only and the mens only threads and worried I'd have to choose. I'm a genderfluid non-binary with 'they' pronouns.

Hi! Welcome! There seem to be a lot of non-binary people on this thread... although I think that is, like you hint at, because there's no other place for us to be 'out', so we tend to congregate here.

 

 

Latsu, I'm sorry your boss was a dick. "Customers might say something..." Really? He had to blame his disagreement on the possible slight discomfort of others?!? Couldn't even own up to his own discomfort. All the customers are likely to say is, "Your assistant has some excellent fashion sense."

[zeroh13]

I'd be open about being non-binary in other threads, but it's never really come up.

I don't go to the men's only thread because the title just doesn't feel welcoming to me. But I doubt I would find much of it relevant, so it's not like I feel that I'm missing out on anything. The women's specific training area, if I remember right, isn't intended to be a "no boys allowed" zone. I will occasionally look around to see if I might find something relevant, but I doubt I would ever feel comfortable posting there.

[Artinum]

The "men only" thread (the second part, as the first got too long for the server to cope with!) was started by Spezzy. She's far from the only female to chime in, too. Think of it more as "men things" rather than "no girls allowed", which men know is a gambit that has never worked at any point in history.

[Latsu Swagneel]

I know this isn't really the place for this, but my girlfriend, who is trans, is looking for a new job because her old one was extremely difficult to deal with ever she came out. If anybody knows of anything in Philadelphia that is queer friendly, can you PM me?

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[ColoQ]

I know this isn't really the place for this, but my girlfriend, who is trans, is looking for a new job because her old one was extremely difficult to deal with ever she came out. If anybody knows of anything in Philadelphia that is queer friendly, can you PM me?

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

I'm in vegas, so... No, sorry. But.. have her check in with the local LGBTQ Support Center. also, check out http://www.outforwork.org/ LGBTQ frienndly career fairs are also held at times in bigger cities (the LGBTQ support center may have more info.)

Good Luck!

[Frost of the Gloaming]

and it's a Nerds "Men" thread it's not like we are filling the pages with Hot or Nots or tales of sexual escapades, I chime in on the thread and can't even tell you what we talk about half the time,( beards, building things, movies)  actually I think those three things make up most of that thread 

 

That sucks Latsu sorry don't know anyone from that area that isn't in the military

 

Zeroh don't be afraid to ask questions, imho on the internet we are nothing but text, so you can be anything you want

[Latsu Swagneel]

I'm in vegas, so... No, sorry. But.. have her check in with the local LGBTQ Support Center. also, check out http://www.outforwork.org/ LGBTQ frienndly career fairs are also held at times in bigger cities (the LGBTQ support center may have more info.)

Good Luck!

Thanks for the info, ColoQ. I'll forward her the link and hopefully there'll be something for her there. However, I do need to ask if it's anything like craigslist, which has some pretty shady shit.

and it's a Nerds "Men" thread it's not like we are filling the pages with Hot or Nots or tales of sexual escapades, I chime in on the thread and can't even tell you what we talk about half the time,( beards, building things, movies) actually I think those three things make up most of that thread

That sucks Latsu sorry don't know anyone from that area that isn't in the military

Thanks for trying to help anyway, Frost. I'm looking into these things for her, but, until then, I'm going to help her out with everything I possibly can, whether it's emotionally, physically, or monetarily.

Zeroh don't be afraid to ask questions, imho on the internet we are nothing but text, so you can be anything you want

It isn't that we are who we are, amd, because it's all text here, it's, in a way, easier to express ourselves how we want to.

On a personal note, I prefer to talk to people using my voice, whether it's on the phone or, better yet, in person, as there are nuances of language that can only be truly expressed with our tones of voice and body language.

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[ColoQ]

Thanks for the info, ColoQ. I'll forward her the link and hopefully there'll be something for her there. However, I do need to ask if it's anything like craigslist, which has some pretty shady shit.

Craigslist is shady as hell.  No this is a national non profit dedicated to connecting LGBTQ people with LGBTQ friendly workplaces.

[petefeet]

So, I went to work today (I work for a local electrician) and I had put on a bit of eyeliner in the morning before I left. He told me that I'm not allowed to wear any makeup because customers might say something to him about it.

The first stop of the morning was at Home Depot and he made me go to the bathroom and wash off as much of it as I could.

I told him that I don't care what other people think and I just want to look the way I want to look.

For context, he's religious Jewish and Israeli and extremely heteronormative. He's told me that he thinks my identity is only to rebel against my parents and that one day I'll get over my "stupidities".

 

 

To play devil's advocate... I work for the government and I've been told to change what I wear a couple times even though I don't deal with the general public.

 

I thought about putting up a stink about it, but once I realized that I do deal with contractors (I'm in the trades as well) and science tech's and it's not just myself I'm representing, but my boss, my co-workers and my department that I finally had to see that some things are bigger than "me".

 

Just offering another view point.

[Latsu Swagneel]

To play devil's advocate... I work for the government and I've been told to change what I wear a couple times even though I don't deal with the general public.

I thought about putting up a stink about it, but once I realized that I do deal with contractors (I'm in the trades as well) and science tech's and it's not just myself I'm representing, but my boss, my co-workers and my department that I finally had to see that some things are bigger than "me".

Just offering another view point.

I understand that, however there are days where I wake up feeling more femme but have no clothing I could wear in the job. I specifically don't wear it too thick or wear any eyeshadow. The only other way is to text Æryn which I can't do because in not allowed till have muy phone with me when we're at a job. I can only have It when we'renight night on another job and we're driving. It helps me to not feel uncomfortable or have any anxiety when people refer to me with he/ him pronouns (I use Hu/Hume pronouns). It's a safety blanket that gives me a protective bubble against the negativity.

Sorry about the rambling...

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[Jett]

Haha, this might sound weird, but I have an idea for you, Latsu.

 

What if you get some really pretty girly panties and wear those under your work clothes on femme days? Nobody can see them, but you'll know they're there.

[Latsu Swagneel]

Haha, this might sound weird, but I have an idea for you, Latsu.

What if you get some really pretty girly panties and wear those under your work clothes on femme days? Nobody can see them, but you'll know they're there. [emoji14]

Actually, to be honest Æryn gave a pair of hers...[emoji19] [emoji6] [emoji39] [emoji132] [emoji171] [emoji175] [emoji170]

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[Artinum]

I've been wearing my partner's clothes for years now, but it's not quite so special for us!

[Kes]

Hey, all.  Lesbian, and first time poster in this thread.

 

 

I understand that, however there are days where I wake up feeling more femme but have no clothing I could wear in the job. I specifically don't wear it too thick or wear any eyeshadow. The only other way is to text Æryn which I can't do because in not allowed till have muy phone with me when we're at a job. I can only have It when we'renight night on another job and we're driving. It helps me to not feel uncomfortable or have any anxiety when people refer to me with he/ him pronouns (I use Hu/Hume pronouns). It's a safety blanket that gives me a protective bubble against the negativity.
Sorry about the rambling...

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

 

Maybe you could figure out what it is about stereotypically "feminine" attire that helps you manage your anxiety, and see what you can do internally to get that same result?  Seems to me like the issue with your boss is more of a side issue, and the real issue is why you feel anxious when you aren't wearing clothing or make-up which is stereotypically associated with women. What does it mean to you when you're "feeling femme"?

[zeroh13]

Haha, this might sound weird, but I have an idea for you, Latsu.

 

What if you get some really pretty girly panties and wear those under your work clothes on femme days? Nobody can see them, but you'll know they're there.

 

That's actually a good idea.

 

If you can spare a little money it might be worth it to try buying some work appropriate women's clothing or shoes. Depending on the cut/style/fit/etc you can get something androgynous enough that no one would really be able to tell. (Maybe look through a few thrift stores?)

 

You could also try something like painting your toenails. Or shaving your legs.

[Latsu Swagneel]

Hey, all. Lesbian, and first time poster in this thread.

Maybe you could figure out what it is about stereotypically "feminine" attire that helps you manage your anxiety, and see what you can do internally to get that same result? Seems to me like the issue with your boss is more of a side issue, and the real issue is why you feel anxious when you aren't wearing clothing or make-up which is stereotypically associated with women. What does it mean to you when you're "feeling femme"?

It's hard to explain...I don't identify on the spectrum at all so there are days where I feel more like the feminine side of the spectrum while other days I feel more on the masculine side. It's the femme days that give me that feeling.

That's actually a good idea.

If you can spare a little money it might be worth it to try buying some work appropriate women's clothing or shoes. Depending on the cut/style/fit/etc you can get something androgynous enough that no one would really be able to tell. (Maybe look through a few thrift stores?)

You could also try something like painting your toenails. Or shaving your legs.

I don't know about shaving legs, as my girlfriend likes them the way they are, but I think I will do what was suggested and get some clothing that would be a bit more androgynous despite the fact that my appearance is rather masc on its own.

Sent from my phone. Please excuse any errors...

[Kes]

It's hard to explain...I don't identify on the spectrum at all so there are days where I feel more like the feminine side of the spectrum while other days I feel more on the masculine side. It's the femme days that give me that feeling.

 

Well, I'm not sure anybody really identifies as being on "the spectrum," since it's all just made-up social associations, anyway.  There really is no such thing as "feminine" or "masculine" outside of a social context.

 

So you feel like there are aspects of your personality which are seen as "feminine," and that you want to express those in some sort of external way (or be able to hold onto them while other people are perceiving you as "masculine")? Is it more about other people reading you as "feminine," or is it about feeling like you're carrying something with you which is a touchstone to those parts of your personality?

 

If you get to the core of your frustrations, you might be able to come up with a better solution.

[Shen]

To share a positive workplace experience, I work at a mental health hospital which lets people put pronouns on their nametags if they want (we're working on having *everyone* have pronouns and not just have it be a 'trans thing' but hey, progress!), and a few staffers on our LGBTQ unit noticed my nonbinary pronouns. They've been coming down and talking to me on their breaks about how we can educate others and spread awareness so we can make the hospital a better healthier safer place for trans patients and employees.

[zeroh13]

Well, I'm not sure anybody really identifies as being on "the spectrum," since it's all just made-up social associations, anyway.  There really is no such thing as "feminine" or "masculine" outside of a social context.

 

I think that really depends on which spectrum we're talking about and how we define it (gender (in the broadest sense)?, roles?, traits?, appearance?, expression?, identity (inner sense of self)?, etc)

 

In the academic sense, you're basically correct, but in the real life practical sense, it's a lot more complicated than that and can go much deeper than just made-up social associations.

[Jett]

I don't know about shaving legs, as my girlfriend likes them the way they are, but I think I will do what was suggested and get some clothing that would be a bit more androgynous despite the fact that my appearance is rather masc on its own.

That seems like a good way to start.

 

Hey, all.  Lesbian, and first time poster in this thread.

Hi, welcome! Thanks for chiming in.

 

Well, I'm not sure anybody really identifies as being on "the spectrum," since it's all just made-up social associations, anyway.  There really is no such thing as "feminine" or "masculine" outside of a social context.

 

So you feel like there are aspects of your personality which are seen as "feminine," and that you want to express those in some sort of external way (or be able to hold onto them while other people are perceiving you as "masculine")? Is it more about other people reading you as "feminine," or is it about feeling like you're carrying something with you which is a touchstone to those parts of your personality?

 

This is a really interesting commentary. I agree with Zeroh that there's more to gender identity and expression than just what society defines; if nothing else, the male sex and female sex do have certain visual differences because of hormones and biology. And many trans people feel that their bodies are wrong, independent of how they are being perceived by society (which is also important, but a separate, though related, issue). So I think that gender itself must be also an internal thing, beyond masculinity or femininity. That's why you can get expressions like "girly trans-men" - they have a male gender identity that didn't work with their external bodies, but still like certain expressions that society deems feminine.

 

What it means to be masculine or feminine definitely comes mainly from the culture around us, but it seems impossible to dismiss that just because it's "made-up." Technically true, but we're all influenced by the culture(s) we grew up in and live in. It informs how we view our own gender. I really, really like how you point out that how we feel we are perceived by those around us is an important consideration. It can be see in two types of gender dysphoria: dysphoria caused by our bodies not matching what we feel our gender is (as mentioned above), and dysphoria caused by how we are treated or acting not matching what we feel our gender is (aka social dysphoria). I don't really get body dysphoria, but like Latsu, I do have days where I feel that I more strongly identify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes trying to do feminine things on a day where I feel masculine can cause me to feel really... stressed out and frustrated. I noticed this most with make up. Sometimes make up is fun and I really want to try out new looks. Sometimes I just can't seem to get it right, it just looks wrong, and even the act of putting it on stresses me out. Of course, the obvious solution there is to just not wear it if I'm not feeling it that day.

 

In my above example, it's more about how I perceive myself in relation to my internalized cultural values of masculinity and femininity. But, it can also be distressing to be treated like a girl by others when I'm really not feeling girly that day. Ever since I started presenting in a more androgynous way, I haven't really had to deal with that too much. (I also work from home and don't interact face to face with people very often, so that helps.) I can also usually extend grace to people who do treat me like a woman, since I know they have no way of knowing what's going on in my head, and hey, I do have boobs and generally appear to be female (and I even use female pronouns out of convenience!). However, I know that it can be a lot harder for some others, and that sounds like what Latsu is experiencing.

 

Latsu, I hope that expressing yourself as more androgynous, or finding ways to internally harmonize with your feminine side, will help you to get through being treated as a man when you just don't feel that way yourself. I think Kes has a good point, that you should think about whether being perceived as female or androgynous by others is important and perhaps a cause of your distress/dysphoria. It looks like your current boss is not going to be too open to that, which sucks big time. :/ But if you do find that your external expression is a big part of what's causing your issues, then you'll know what to focus on to find ways of dealing with it.

[Kes]

I think that really depends on which spectrum we're talking about and how we define it (gender (in the broadest sense)?, roles?, traits?, appearance?, expression?, identity (inner sense of self)?, etc)

 

In the academic sense, you're basically correct, but in the real life practical sense, it's a lot more complicated than that and can go much deeper than just made-up social associations.

 

Just because something is a social construction doesn't mean that it doesn't impact us.  Virtually everything we do and all aspects of our identities are socially constructed.  But I think it's important to realize that when talking about something that's created socially, these aren't neutral categorizations that really describe people in some innate way.  Nobody is wholly "feminine" or "masculine" or even identifies in that way, because these are (pretty sexist) archetypal descriptors about behavior/dress/attitudes/thoughts; every single person is going to have some characteristics which are "feminine" and "masculine" because people are individuals, not stereotypes.  Every person has to grow up and negotiate with these concepts which have been put on us, in a sexist society which grooms us to behave in certain ways and punishes us when we behave in others; so while some people might end up adopting the traits associated with their sex or gender that doesn't actually mean that's who they are as a person.

 

I think it's important to recognize when talking about issues of gender and sex that, ultimately, everybody is an individual who has made choices and decisions (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) based on social factors which have been thrust on us since birth, including people who seem to be conforming to gender roles and stereotypes.  Even if they don't seem constrained, they are.  I say this as somebody who is almost always read as a lesbian because of the way I dress (androgynous attire, no make-up, no shaving, short hair, etc).

 

 

This is a really interesting commentary. I agree with Zeroh that there's more to gender identity and expression than just what society defines; if nothing else, the male sex and female sex do have certain visual differences because of hormones and biology. And many trans people feel that their bodies are wrong, independent of how they are being perceived by society (which is also important, but a separate, though related, issue). So I think that gender itself must be also an internal thing, beyond masculinity or femininity. That's why you can get expressions like "girly trans-men" - they have a male gender identity that didn't work with their external bodies, but still like certain expressions that society deems feminine.

 

Really interesting reading your response. Thanks.

 

But I think you're conflating the biological/reproductive aspects of sex (male and female) with gendered social roles. The former is material reality - I mean, I'll have a period regardless of how I identify or conceive of myself.  But the second prong - how society treats me based on my sex (by defining me as a woman, and expecting "feminine" behavior) - is socially created.  There's nothing innate or intrinsic about that.

 

Also, the physical dysphoria felt by some (not all) trans people doesn't necessarily mean that gender is innate.  The physical sense of the body doesn't really have anything to do with gender roles. Besides, if gender was innate, why would it vary so much from culture to culture? The only thing that remains the same between cultures is that there are social role separations based on sex, but the distinctions (what is classified as "masculine" or "feminine") differ wildly.  It's perfectly possible to explain this without resorting to gender being innate - it just means most cultures find it important to be able to visually distinguish people based on (presumed) reproductive role.

[Jett]

But I think you're conflating the biological/reproductive aspects of sex (male and female) with gendered social roles. The former is material reality - I mean, I'll have a period regardless of how I identify or conceive of myself.  But the second prong - how society treats me based on my sex (by defining me as a woman, and expecting "feminine" behavior) - is socially created.  There's nothing innate or intrinsic about that.

 

Also, the physical dysphoria felt by some (not all) trans people doesn't necessarily mean that gender is innate.  The physical sense of the body doesn't really have anything to do with gender roles. Besides, if gender was innate, why would it vary so much from culture to culture? The only thing that remains the same between cultures is that there are social role separations based on sex, but the distinctions (what is classified as "masculine" or "feminine") differ wildly.  It's perfectly possible to explain this without resorting to gender being innate - it just means most cultures find it important to be able to visually distinguish people based on (presumed) reproductive role.

 

Hmm. I guess I didn't explain myself very well previously, since I was specifically trying to emphasize the difference between reproductive sex and gender, with gender roles/expectations being a different consideration. I think the difference in our view points is that I believe there are basically three factors at play: the reproductive sex assigned at birth, the innate gender, and the society-created gender roles. If I'm understanding you right, you don't see gender as something innate, only an internalized construct based on the gender roles of a society?

 

 

Would you agree with the following?

 

Physical sex is a combination of masculine and feminine biological traits (usually mostly one sex's traits, unless treatments or unusual conditions have intervened).

Gender Identity is a combination of masculine and feminine traits defined by a culture, with people usually leaning more to one role than the other.

 

I personally agree with the above, but consider there to be an additional layer of complexity when it comes to the element of choice. I was assigned female at birth, and my gender identity is agender (but fluid). Although I didn't consciously decide to do it when I was younger, I've always rejected a lot of behaviors that our society calls feminine. Some internal compass guides me, says 'that's not you' in regards to behaviors that society tells me I should want to do, as a female. That doesn't mean I can't do the things, just that I somehow ended up with a set of personal identifiers that don't agree with culturally-defined gender roles. Where did those come from?

 

Similarly, my spouse is trans, assigned male at birth. She grew up with all brothers, in a situation where masculine traits were generally considered preferable to feminine traits. As a male, she would have had advantages in a generally misogynistic society. As a transwoman, she faces many hardships. But, when she ignored the little voice inside that said 'something about this is wrong, something about this isn't you' she was suicidally depressed. Where did that internal identity come from? It's certainly not something she chose, nor is it likely to have been shaped by her childhood.

 

The above are examples of what I consider to be the 'innate gender identity'. It is based on the society's ideas about masculine and feminine (which, as you mention, are quite variable), but has roots so deep in the psyche that it's more than just an assimilation of cultural expectations. If it was, why do we so so many people who express their gender in such a broad variety of ways? I believe there's something within the personality that is already preset at or shortly after birth that shapes how we react to the cultural ideas we encounter as we grow up.

 

I'm not saying gender identities can't change over time, or anything like that (as said, mine seems to like to switch around pretty regularly), but I am suggesting that they are something we can't really change through conscious choice. We can choose how to express (or not express) our identity, but not the identity itself. (Kinda similar to sexual attraction here. Someone can be gay, gay but not act on it, gay and pretending to be attracted to women, even gay but in denial about it... but they can't just make themselves be straight through sheer force of will.)

 

I didn't really mention social expectations yet, but that add a whole new layer to everything. As a female, I am expected by Western society at large to want children, to be empathic, to dress in a certain way, and so on. Some of those things are true for me, some are not. I most definitely agree with you that everyone is affected by these expectations, and that most people are modifying their behavior because of it, to some degree or another. In fact, that's exactly what I mean in relation to the idea of the innate gender identity. Some people have an identity that is pretty close to what is expected of them based on their biology. Some feel that their sex matches their biological gender, but want to act in a way that is different than expected. Some have an internal identity that is so different from the expected that they are rejected by society when they try to express it. It is the expression part of gender identity that I believe to be the area in which we have choice.

 

I hope that you can see where I am coming from with this. I think what I really took issue with was the implication that if gender identity isn't intrinsic, then it's something you can choose. Maybe that isn't what you meant at all - after writing this all out, I kind of get the feeling that we might be agreeing with each other, but using different words to say it. Anyway, I am definitely interested to see if you agree with my definitions of physical sex and gender identity, and if not, what your definitions are.

[Kes]

Hmm. I guess I didn't explain myself very well previously, since I was specifically trying to emphasize the difference between reproductive sex and gender, with gender roles/expectations being a different consideration. I think the difference in our view points is that I believe there are basically three factors at play: the reproductive sex assigned at birth, the innate gender, and the society-created gender roles. If I'm understanding you right, you don't see gender as something innate, only an internalized construct based on the gender roles of a society?

 

 

Would you agree with the following?

 

(snip)

 

I hope that you can see where I am coming from with this. I think what I really took issue with was the implication that if gender identity isn't intrinsic, then it's something you can choose. Maybe that isn't what you meant at all - after writing this all out, I kind of get the feeling that we might be agreeing with each other, but using different words to say it. Anyway, I am definitely interested to see if you agree with my definitions of physical sex and gender identity, and if not, what your definitions are.

 

I think we pretty much are agreeing and just using different terminology.  What you're calling gender identity, I'm calling personality - the aspects of the self which cause one to negotiate gendered expectations in certain ways throughout one's life.  I don't think that's a part of the self which is innately gendered, though.  When I was rejecting dresses and "girly" behavior as a preschooler, and was pleased whenever strangers referred to me as a boy, it was mostly because I didn't feel comfortable with the associations and expectations placed on me by the social category of "girl."  And I was growing up in the US in the 1980s, when gendered expectations on children were markedly less stringent than they are today.

 

I saw myself in the (male) Voltron Force pilots and other similar characters - people who demonstrated competence, bravery, forthright responses to interpersonal tension, and collaborative teamwork; I couldn't see myself in Jem, where the premise of the show was manipulation of others and a focus on personal aesthetics and image-making (and where all the women were expected, at one point or another, to date a man). Now I can watch both shows as an adult with my children and recognize that I was disregarding very negative messages from Voltron while ignoring positive messages in Jem, and I can see how my childhood filter was strongly influenced by the dynamics in my household and social culture around me (even though I was quite young at the time - those filters set in early).

 

If I had been growing up in a different household, different cultural context, and so forth, the way that I negotiated with the gendered expectations placed on me would probably have been different.  I probably wouldn't have minded being a girl so much.

 

The thing is, I don't know any women who really feel like their adoption of gendered expectations is a part of who they are as people.  I've talked about this with a lot of close friends, women I've dated, and female relatives across multiple generations.  All of us undergo a lot of negotiation with gender in our formative years.  It isn't an easy adoption for any of us.

 

Do we choose the specific challenges that we face with regards to that?  No, of course not.  But does it mean that there's an internal aspect of our being which relates to gender?  Or are we just reflecting the kind of varied, individual responses you'd expect if there was a bizarre, illogical social system thrust on young children en masse?

 

That's why I talk about it being personality rather than innate gendered identity.  It's an internal response to an external set of stimuli and forces, not something that arises from inside one's own being.

 

I'm also leery of people using that to describe gender as being "innate" because then we start getting into the idea that the "spectrum" is intrinsic, or is at least a neutral way to describe people.  But it isn't - it's highly oppressive.  For instance, I hear a lot in the queer community that we shouldn't describe a child's reproductive sex (and I agree, fixating on the potential reproductive role of a prepubescent child is kind of creepy), because we should give the kid a chance to grow up to indicate their own gender.  Assume, hypothetically, that we were able to raise a child in an environment where there was no sexism, and no social roles or behaviors were linked to sex or gender in any way - what makes them think the kid would have a gender at all?  To me, it sounds like saying that children should be able to express their innate jati, when without an oppressive caste system there is no jati (yet people still have things they are good at, or would prefer to do).  See what I mean?