LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[MissMormie]

I have trouble understanding what is wrong with a crusader mascot?

I can recommend 'Monster' the beachside town with a large sandy beach and garantueed not too hot ten months of the year. Probably cold and rainy for those ten months though, located in the very liberal Netherlands.

[Bekah]

I have trouble understanding what is wrong with a crusader mascot?

I can recommend 'Monster' the beachside town with a large sandy beach and garantueed not too hot ten months of the year. Probably cold and rainy for those ten months though, located in the very liberal Netherlands.

The Crusaders were a religious group of soldiers sent into the "Holy Land" to claim it for Christianity, and the offensiveness of that event in history to the non Christians aside, it's a clearly religious symbol being used in a publicly funded school and in America, our Constitution says that is not legal, but because this is an area with a conservative, white, Christian majority , they aren't bothered by it, but I was, because regardless of my religious beliefs, it's something clearly against the law...but it being allowed to be used as a mascot for 50+ years without that being changed, is indicative of the cultural climate of this area, to me at least. However, im not trying to make this a discussion about religion or politics...to each their own, but keep it out of my kid's school.

[Kevin Mack]

Minor thread-jack, but the history of the crusaders is a little more complex than that and more than just white Christian imperialism. If you want something to be upset about, there's a high-school in my hometown (in Florida of course) named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate general and founder of the Klan (yes, that Klan). They finally voted this year to change the name.

[insanity]

Minor thread-jack, but the history of the crusaders is a little more complex than that and more than just white Christian imperialism. If you want something to be upset about, there's a high-school in my hometown (in Florida of course) named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate general and founder of the Klan (yes, that Klan). They finally voted this year to change the name.

 

Beat me to it, I used to run track for a school that competed with them.

[MissMormie]

It's just a symbol for fighting and perseverance.

I mean almost everything in history is tied to religion in some way or torture or something else bad.

We celebrate sinterklaas here (which the americans changed into santa) and he is originally a christian priests. So he wears a cross and is dressed as a holy person. But it's not a religious thing at all, it's just a celebration.

I think your crusader is the same, it's just mascot. And it's wrong to get rid of every symbol that can possibly be tied to religion only for that reason. I mean praying before lessons would be invasive, and wrong for a public school, but this? I still so no issue with it.

[Flex Luthor]

It's just a symbol for fighting and perseverance.

I mean almost everything in history is tied to religion in some way or torture or something else bad.

We celebrate sinterklaas here (which the americans changed into santa) and he is originally a christian priests. So he wears a cross and is dressed as a holy person. But it's not a religious thing at all, it's just a celebration.

I think your crusader is the same, it's just mascot. And it's wrong to get rid of every symbol that can possibly be tied to religion only for that reason. I mean praying before lessons would be invasive, and wrong for a public school, but this? I still so no issue with it.

 

A school named after the founding member of the KKK is pretty bad though lol

[Kevin Mack]

Yeah, I mean the Klan didn't get really violent until after he died but it was most definitely a racist white guy club. If you want to name a school after a Confederate general, there are much better choices. Lee, Jackson and Longstreet all come to mind.

[Bekah]

Minor thread-jack, but the history of the crusaders is a little more complex than that and more than just white Christian imperialism. If you want something to be upset about, there's a high-school in my hometown (in Florida of course) named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate general and founder of the Klan (yes, that Klan). They finally voted this year to change the name.

I know the history, and the history from a white Christian perspective and that of a non white, non Christian in the Middle East are two different stories entirely, so even if both are wrong, and the truth is somewhere in the middle, which given that history is biased on both sides no matter how much it tries to not be, is probably closer to reality,  its still not a positive thing to me....Florida is still backwards none the less as evidenced by your point about that high school, and I am not the least bit surprised. 

 

It's just a symbol for fighting and perseverance.

I mean almost everything in history is tied to religion in some way or torture or something else bad.

We celebrate sinterklaas here (which the americans changed into santa) and he is originally a christian priests. So he wears a cross and is dressed as a holy person. But it's not a religious thing at all, it's just a celebration.

I think your crusader is the same, it's just mascot. And it's wrong to get rid of every symbol that can possibly be tied to religion only for that reason. I mean praying before lessons would be invasive, and wrong for a public school, but this? I still so no issue with it.

I can understand your point, but to me there is a difference between a positive celebration of a good man, regardless of origin, and something that was in essence (on one side of the story) mass genocide because of religious beliefs...granted we could debate the legitimacy of that claim, because there are history books and people who say that is entirely untrue, but to me, the possibility that it is true, combined with the Constitutional separation of church and state, makes it wrong. They aren't allowed to celebrate Santa or Christmas either in the public schools, and I don't find that wrong either. That's the point in essence, you can't say "its okay to have a Christian religious symbol of bravery as your mascot, but not celebrate Christmas" both are tied to religion, even if just in name....so both are equally wrong in public school when there is a national law that says so. I could care less if they have Christmas trees or any of that in the school, but if they allow that, they have to allow other faiths to celebrate in school too. So using the example of a Crusader, that means that if they should allow the Crusader as a mascot, then another school could use someone like Adolf Hitler, because there are people who think the Holocaust was made up (Im not saying I agree with that, but there are people who do believe it) or Nathan Bedford Forrest...so its not so much that I believe its wrong and don't like it for the religious aspect alone, if they had Jesus or Moses as their mascot I would say the same thing 

[Bekah]

Minor thread-jack, but the history of the crusaders is a little more complex than that and more than just white Christian imperialism. If you want something to be upset about, there's a high-school in my hometown (in Florida of course) named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, Confederate general and founder of the Klan (yes, that Klan). They finally voted this year to change the name.

I know the history, and the history from a white Christian perspective and that of a non white, non Christian in the Middle East are two different stories entirely, so even if both are wrong, and the truth is somewhere in the middle, which given that history is biased on both sides no matter how much it tries to not be, is probably closer to reality,  its still not a positive thing to me....Florida is still backwards none the less as evidenced by your point about that high school, and I am not the least bit surprised. 

 

It's just a symbol for fighting and perseverance.

I mean almost everything in history is tied to religion in some way or torture or something else bad.

We celebrate sinterklaas here (which the americans changed into santa) and he is originally a christian priests. So he wears a cross and is dressed as a holy person. But it's not a religious thing at all, it's just a celebration.

I think your crusader is the same, it's just mascot. And it's wrong to get rid of every symbol that can possibly be tied to religion only for that reason. I mean praying before lessons would be invasive, and wrong for a public school, but this? I still so no issue with it.

I can understand your point, but to me there is a difference between a positive celebration of a good man, regardless of origin, and something that was in essence (on one side of the story) mass genocide because of religious beliefs...granted we could debate the legitimacy of that claim, because there are history books and people who say that is entirely untrue, but to me, the possibility that it is true, combined with the Constitutional separation of church and state, makes it wrong. They aren't allowed to celebrate Santa or Christmas either in the public schools, and I don't find that wrong either. That's the point in essence, you can't say "its okay to have a Christian religious symbol of bravery as your mascot, but not celebrate Christmas" both are tied to religion, even if just in name....so both are equally wrong in public school when there is a national law that says so. I could care less if they have Christmas trees or any of that in the school, but if they allow that, they have to allow other faiths to celebrate in school too. So using the example of a Crusader, that means that if they should allow the Crusader as a mascot, then another school could use someone like Adolf Hitler, because there are people who think the Holocaust was made up (Im not saying I agree with that, but there are people who do believe it) or Nathan Bedford Forrest...so its not so much that I believe its wrong and don't like it for the religious aspect alone, if they had Jesus or Moses as their mascot I would say the same thing 

[Jittersthe.Clown]

Hm.....I'm not sure which is more tempting MN, IL, MN, IL

Jitters your wife isnt going to kill me right? It's all fun and games till someone picks up the steak knives

I am totally okay with some kind of zen pebble garden with a fountain, its all about the visual effects of the water and the sound...a waterfall type fountain is equivalent to a beach to my psyche...being able to go in the water has its benefits, but nothing a weighted blanket doesn't solve too...so it's not mandatory

I can't see why she would.  The North Shore of Lake Superior can be quite Zen-like, so long as you don't mind the chill.

[Frost of the Gloaming]

Peebley beaches remind me of Maine, which is absolutely beautiful and very cold; also gay marriage is legal there.

[Jittersthe.Clown]

Another reason I mention MN.  Maine is a wonderfully beautiful state.  

[Flex Luthor]

Gay marriage will be legal in Illinois as well very soon. Legislation's been passed and I think it's official in June although I could just be making that last bit up.

[Jittersthe.Clown]

June 1st for Illinois.  Why it's not nationally is well beyond my comprehension.  

[Kevin Mack]

10th amendment.

[Flex Luthor]

I think it's inevitable at this point considering that young people like myself overwhelmingly support gay marriage.

[insanity]

June 1st for Illinois.  Why it's not nationally is well beyond my comprehension.  

It's a matter of changing a nations beliefs. People didn't give up slavery as soon as someone said it was bad.

 

Which reminds me a one of the most interesting signs I've seen in protest against gays. It was a group of blacks, standing on what looked like official building stairs with a sign that read "No rights for gays"... I had to do a double take, then laugh at the idiocy in that image.

[Kevin Mack]

The beauty of libertarianism is that you can believe in equal rights for everyone regardless of your opinion of their lifestyle. The confusion comes in when people confuse the Constitution and the Bible. The Bible tells individuals how to act, the Constitution tells the federal government how to act. Huge difference.

[Basement Cat]

It's a matter of changing a nations beliefs. People didn't give up slavery as soon as someone said it was bad.

 

Which reminds me a one of the most interesting signs I've seen in protest against gays. It was a group of blacks, standing on what looked like official building stairs with a sign that read "No rights for gays"... I had to do a double take, then laugh at the idiocy in that image.

Bigotry and stupidity know no boundaries.

[Jittersthe.Clown]

I know change comes hard, it still astounds me, though.  I understand the concept of hate, but I don't comprehend the why of it.  It's something that has always baffled me.  

[Basement Cat]

I know change comes hard, it still astounds me, though.  I understand the concept of hate, but I don't comprehend the why of it.  It's something that has always baffled me.  

From my experience, hatred has three sources:

1- fear of those who are different, thus driving us to "validate" our own identity.

2- fear of those who remind us of our own weaknesses, thus presenting us with a reality we would rather not confront

3- anger and pain from real or perceived wrongs.

 

That's just my take on it. If you disagree, please don't throw stuff at me.

[Frost of the Gloaming]

(Don't) Give hate a chance

[fleaball]

In other news, Virginia's AG won't defend their same-sex marriage ban in court. Woooo, baby steps.

[Bekah]

It's a matter of changing a nations beliefs. People didn't give up slavery as soon as someone said it was bad.

 

Which reminds me a one of the most interesting signs I've seen in protest against gays. It was a group of blacks, standing on what looked like official building stairs with a sign that read "No rights for gays"... I had to do a double take, then laugh at the idiocy in that image.

 

I remember reading a story in an undergrad class where we studied the Civil Rights movement in great detail, and there was a lesbian couple who said they were sisters, I think, who helped with feeding and housing the Freedom Riders when they stayed in their area. The idea of that image makes me very sad

 

I know change comes hard, it still astounds me, though.  I understand the concept of hate, but I don't comprehend the why of it.  It's something that has always baffled me.

  

From my experience, hatred has three sources:

1- fear of those who are different, thus driving us to "validate" our own identity.

2- fear of those who remind us of our own weaknesses, thus presenting us with a reality we would rather not confront

3- anger and pain from real or perceived wrongs.

 

That's just my take on it. If you disagree, please don't throw stuff at me.

You beat me to it I agree entirely, although I would add that human beings all have the capacity for doing both great positive and great negative for others, it's a universal human trait, and it is present in varying degrees and exacerbated by the 3 things SR said, and some people don't fight that darkness, some people are convinced, by their own minds or by it being dictated by others they are following in some way, that its justified because its "the right thing" or they are "doing their job" and they separate the violence against a human being from violence againt an evil...those people cease to be human in their eyes, essentially. or some people just never bother to fight it at all and become truly violent and dangerous because they have more of the negative end of that spectrum, like a serial killer or someone. Hah y'all hit on my favorite stuff in the world: Macro level Social Problems <3

[Basement Cat]

 

I remember reading a story in an undergrad class where we studied the Civil Rights movement in great detail, and there was a lesbian couple who said they were sisters, I think, who helped with feeding and housing the Freedom Riders when they stayed in their area. The idea of that image makes me very sad

   

You beat me to it I agree entirely, although I would add that human beings all have the capacity for doing both great positive and great negative for others, it's a universal human trait, and it is present in varying degrees and exacerbated by the 3 things SR said, and some people don't fight that darkness, some people are convinced, by their own minds or by it being dictated by others they are following in some way, that its justified because its "the right thing" or they are "doing their job" and they separate the violence against a human being from violence againt an evil...those people cease to be human in their eyes, essentially. or some people just never bother to fight it at all and become truly violent and dangerous because they have more of the negative end of that spectrum, like a serial killer or someone. Hah y'all hit on my favorite stuff in the world: Macro level Social Problems <3

I'm going to disagree on a small detail: serial killers, or psychopaths, are not so much evil as they are insane. Their brain does not function like a 'normal' person's, for lack of a better word.

 

Sociopaths, on the other hand, could qualify because their defining characteristic is an inability to empathise. They literally (proper usage!) cannot take other peoples' feelings into account. Lack of empathy, aka selfishness, is what leads to 'evil' acts most of the time. If you look at the criminal mind it's amazing how many of them are monstrously selfish. They don't care about the damage they cause because they are suffering and they want stuff. Ordinary people exhibit this trait too, albeit to a lesser extent.

 

It's similar with bigotry. Bigots tend to justify their attitudes with the 'me and my own' mentality. Basically, someone who is different is making them uncomfortable for various reasons, therefore they are justified in their abuse because this person 'attacked' them first and they are only 'defending' themselves. They are completely unable\unwilling to take the other person's feelings into account.

 

And I don't think I need to mention the amount of anti-gay politicians who were flung out of the closet...