LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

shaeon · January 24, 2015

English is not my first language, so my comment can be out of place, but why do you say that your pet was "fixed" instead of "castrated" or "sterilized"? Is it "fixing" when there is no health reason for the operation, but only convenience for the owner?
In order to get the right name and gender on my passport, according to the law of my country of origin I must be castrated. I am perfectly happy with my genitals and internal organs now, probably same as a cat before the trip to the vet. Is the State "fixing" me through castration, more or less as a misbehaving pet is fixed?
Of course according to the people who wrote that law, trans people need to be "fixed". An maybe I am identifying too much with the pets. But still, reading that the poor beast id "fixed" makes me cringe and think to all LGBT* people "fixed" in a similar way

Tkal - "Fixed" is just a coloquialism. Veterinarians tend to use the terms "spay" and "neuter", which very specifically refer to preventing animals from reproducing - they aren't terms that apply to humans. People have a variety of opinions about whether taking an animal's ability to reproduce away from it is ethical, but while a cat or dog cannot consent to this procedure, reproduction isn't much of a choice either - they go into heat and obey what instinct tells them to do. Seems to me if you deconstruct the whole thing enough, you have to admit that we breed animals for characteristics that suit our needs, and they wouldn't have these lives if it weren't for us - for better AND for worse. We do a lot to prevent them from acting naturally. I feel like the argument is either to accept that controlling the pet population is a human responsibility since we are responsible for pets existing, or else just don't own pets because having them at all is participating in controlling another creature (I have two cats, for the record, and I don't have any guilt about owning cats. They would have had short lives on the street without me, and now they get to live indoors and go to the vet when they are sick and get fed regularly).

It doesn't compare to human beings being forced to be castrated or sterilized. That's not an animal obeying base instinct, that's human beings with free will - the will to choose, as you do, to identify the way you want to and not have your body altered against your will.

I'm not sure where you are from, but I agree with Hitlion - if this is the way things are where you live, that's fucked up.

Artinum · January 24, 2015

Indeed, which is why I use "fixed" in quotes - it's rather ironic. Technically, part of the animal has been broken rather than repaired. In Scrabble's case, we didn't have any choice in the matter - she was a rescue cat, and the shelter policy is to spay/neuter all adoptees (a simple act that makes the animals easier to rehome and drastically reduces the number of new cats and dogs that they may need to rehome in the future).

Scrabble seems perfectly happy - or should that be purrfectly? - and we never need to worry about the welfare of unexpected kittens, the visitations of curious toms or waking up at 2am to the yowling of a cat in heat. This is why I consider her to be asexual now - she doesn't have any interest in mating with either gender. Cats are a lot simpler in these matters than humans.

I do wonder whether this is an approach that should be applied to humans, as well. Too damn many of the things around as it is and they keep breeding.

Tkal · January 24, 2015

I was not discussing if it is ethical to neuter animals or not. Mine was just a reflection on the choice of terms. It was linguistic curiosity. Sometimes you react badly to a word in another language only because in your first language it has a stronger meaning

@tkal - are you being hyperbolic when you say your country requires you to be castrated? If not, thats ultra fucked up. I dont know of any western nation that requires literal castration. Thats a horrible and barbaric requirement.

The possibility of changing documents without surgeries has not been around long in most countries. The US were an exception on this aspect. Now things have changed in many places, but Italy is quite behind on LGBT issues (and human rights, and freedom of speech...) when compared to the rest of western Europe. It has already improved since they don't force you to undergo also genital reconstruction as it was until 15 years ago but there is still a long way to go. There is a great proposal under discussion, but the Parliament is a mess at the moment, so my hopes are really low.

On the other side, I don't have to pay for any medical treatment and hormones are really affordable when not completely free

shaeon · January 24, 2015

I was not discussing if it is ethical to neuter animals or not. Mine was just a reflection on the choice of terms. It was linguistic curiosity. Sometimes you react badly to a word in another language only because in your first language it has a stronger meaning
The possibility of changing documents without surgeries has not been around long in most countries. The US were an exception on this aspect. Now things have changed in many places, but Italy is quite behind on LGBT issues (and human rights, and freedom of speech...) when compared to the rest of western Europe. It has already improved since they don't force you to undergo also genital reconstruction as it was until 15 years ago but there is still a long way to go. There is a great proposal under discussion, but the Parliament is a mess at the moment, so my hopes are really low.
On the other side, I don't have to pay for any medical treatment and hormones are really affordable when not completely free

I honestly think the reason we don't say castrate and sterilize when talking about our pets is because the words have a harsh tone in English. Spay and neuter are the more correct terms because they refer specifically to procedures performed on animals, but I think the tone is also the reason why.

I didn't realize things were like that in Italy. It's actually rare for me to hear that the US is MORE progressive about something than Europe is, so that's fascinating. Is Italy where you are? And are you saying they don't force the genital reconstruction, but they do require castration and sterilization? That does sound like a mess. I'm sorry to hear about that.

kaelvan · January 25, 2015

And I just want to note, some people may see it as cruel to spay and neuter animals for no health reason, but honestly it can save a lot of lives. There is a serious problem with strays/ferals/homeless animals here and the populations are growing way too fast with so few people adopting (and keeping) animals, especially cats. With completely indoor pets it isn't as much of a problem, but animals that are allowed outside can get pregnant or impregnate others and we end up with litters being abandoned or growing up as ferals and the shelters around my area are so ridiculously full, it's awful. A lot of animals are being euthanized in kill shelters because of it, too.

Where I live we have the issue of cats that aren't fixed. Quit lot of the kittens end up being thrown in the woods and becoming feral. Which then makes more pregnant cats and starting the cycle again. Lot of them that do end up in shelters around here, end up being put down since there's barely any space. It's really sad since quit a few of them are such sweethearts.

I learnt that volunteering quit a bit at those shelters.

Vella · January 25, 2015

Thanks for the webcomic recommendations, everyone - there's my reading for the next while!

I'm a native English speaker, and I tend to use 'neuter' or 'spay' for pets because 'fixed' has awkward connotations for me, too. But yeah, 'castrate' has quite a harsh connotation in English, so I wouldn't use that, either.

I'd also be interested to hear more about the policy where you live, tkal, to compare to Australia as well.

Cupcake_Kim · January 25, 2015

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi. I'm a bi-nerd, so I guess this is where my peeps will be!

Wow...I would never say peeps. Wut?

Anywho, I was a part of the NF forums before, but I had some health problems and life changes, and there was a dude here that used to like to try to have pissing matches with me whenever I had a different opinion from him, so I got exhausted and quit. God forbid someone not love milk....LOL. But I missed the forums so I'm back under a new name.

So, hi I guess.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

kaelvan · January 25, 2015

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi. I'm a bi-nerd, so I guess this is where my peeps will be!
Wow...I would never say peeps. Wut?
Anywho, I was a part of the NF forums before, but I had some health problems and life changes, and there was a dude here that used to like to try to have pissing matches with me whenever I had a different opinion from him, so I got exhausted and quit. God forbid someone not love milk....LOL. But I missed the forums so I'm back under a new name.
So, hi I guess.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

~~If you ever need a formal troll, I volunteer. I've got a rep for breaking people.~~

But atleast you get to hang out with the cool people now.

Bekah · January 25, 2015

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi. I'm a bi-nerd, so I guess this is where my peeps will be!
Wow...I would never say peeps. Wut?
Anywho, I was a part of the NF forums before, but I had some health problems and life changes, and there was a dude here that used to like to try to have pissing matches with me whenever I had a different opinion from him, so I got exhausted and quit. God forbid someone not love milk....LOL. But I missed the forums so I'm back under a new name.
So, hi I guess.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi I'm glad you came back, and well...as far as people who can't handle disagreements...my favorite response is just "nuh uh" and leave it at that Hopefully he has learned his lesson, or is no longer here either, or you just have better people to talk to and now all of us other Alphabet Soup nerds can get on his ass (or paint him with rainbows or someshit )

Cupcake_Kim · January 26, 2015

Thanks guys! I'm not at all worried about that guy anymore. I tend to care a lot less about what people think these days. A formal troll does sound pretty bad-ass though.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

halixius · January 26, 2015

Where I live we have the issue of cats that aren't fixed. Quit lot of the kittens end up being thrown in the woods and becoming feral. Which then makes more pregnant cats and starting the cycle again. Lot of them that do end up in shelters around here, end up being put down since there's barely any space. It's really sad since quit a few of them are such sweethearts.

I learnt that volunteering quit a bit at those shelters.

:/ Sigh, yeah. It also sucks because a lot of shelters aren't using their money how they should be. I like mine because what little money they get, almost all of it goes to the animals we have or to low-income programs we run to help people get their animals fixed and vetted and fed, and when they had the funds for it they would also trap and release ferals after fixing them, or bring them to a sanctuary if they weren't surviving well enough on their own. I heard of one shelter that inherited a few million from someone's will, put it all into building a shiny new facility and paying their staff top dollar, then had to shut it all down because they used up all the money.

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi. I'm a bi-nerd, so I guess this is where my peeps will be!
Wow...I would never say peeps. Wut?
Anywho, I was a part of the NF forums before, but I had some health problems and life changes, and there was a dude here that used to like to try to have pissing matches with me whenever I had a different opinion from him, so I got exhausted and quit. God forbid someone not love milk....LOL. But I missed the forums so I'm back under a new name.
So, hi I guess.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Heya, welcome (back). It sucks that someone drove you away but hopefully you'll have a better experience this time around.

Moriartea_time · January 26, 2015

Hello everyone.

I've seen this thread pop up on the main forum page and decided to check it out. I identified as hetero for most of my life, but in recent years, I've become less sure. My boyfriend has known that I'm at least bi-curious, while I'm finding that panromantic (with a potential dash of demisexual) seems to fit a little better for me (despite the fact I've only ever been in hetero relationships).

I don't know why, but just felt like getting it out here, maybe in an effort to understand myself a bit better, and also get to know you amazing people.

Vella · January 26, 2015

Welcome, Moriartea_time! Having a chat about it is probably not a bad plan - sometimes your feelings become clearer when you articulate them.

Plus, it's perfectly possible to be bisexual, pansexual, panromantic, any of that vein of things, and have had only hetero relationships. There's no quota of guys and girls you have to date/sleep with to "qualify". I realise you probably know that, but I figure it's worth saying.

Bekah · January 26, 2015

Hello everyone.

I've seen this thread pop up on the main forum page and decided to check it out. I identified as hetero for most of my life, but in recent years, I've become less sure. My boyfriend has known that I'm at least bi-curious, while I'm finding that panromantic (with a potential dash of demisexual) seems to fit a little better for me (despite the fact I've only ever been in hetero relationships).

I don't know why, but just felt like getting it out here, maybe in an effort to understand myself a bit better, and also get to know you amazing people.

Hi

We are pretty much on the same page with all the labels...I have never had more than passing flings with other sex/gendered folks and am married to a straight man.

kaelvan · January 26, 2015

Thanks guys! I'm not at all worried about that guy anymore. I tend to care a lot less about what people think these days. A formal troll does sound pretty bad-ass though.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good, but if you need to rough up someone, I will do it.

kaelvan · January 26, 2015

Hello everyone.

I've seen this thread pop up on the main forum page and decided to check it out. I identified as hetero for most of my life, but in recent years, I've become less sure. My boyfriend has known that I'm at least bi-curious, while I'm finding that panromantic (with a potential dash of demisexual) seems to fit a little better for me (despite the fact I've only ever been in hetero relationships).

I don't know why, but just felt like getting it out here, maybe in an effort to understand myself a bit better, and also get to know you amazing people.

You're in good company to do that. You have all people from different walks of life. ~~Even if once in a blue moon there is some downpour...still don't know where I was going with that line, but it sounds nice.~~ Anyway, so don't hesitate to ask anyone of us questions. You'll be surprised how helpful the alphabet soupers are. They also don't seem to mind that much, even things you are worried about even mention outside your head (~~an example me and my days I don't even feel like a female...I've been too nervous to tell another soul about, but them~~). I have to say they made me feel so comfort about with myself. I love them for it.

So good luck on your journey to learning about yourself and don't even worry to ask anything or talk about anything.

Candace Koller · January 26, 2015

Welcome, welcome, this is a great place to be! One of the more friendly areas of the internet if I do say so myself! I've felt more comfortable here than I have with most people I know IRL or my facebook feeds and such. You'll love it, I'm absolutely sure.

Also, hey guys, hey guys! My binder came in! I had no idea how much more confident I would feel wearing it. I'm not constantly adjusting my shirt anymore and am a heck of a lot less self conscious.

Moriartea_time · January 26, 2015

Yay! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

kaelvan · January 26, 2015

Also, I found the best gif when searching for something

Can't tell if it's Lincoln or an Amish guy

Frost of the Gloaming · January 26, 2015

Amish Lincoln

Candace Koller · January 26, 2015

Babe Lincoln?

kaelvan · January 26, 2015

Amish Lincoln

I actually googled that and found this

shaeon · January 26, 2015

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi. I'm a bi-nerd, so I guess this is where my peeps will be!
Wow...I would never say peeps. Wut?
Anywho, I was a part of the NF forums before, but I had some health problems and life changes, and there was a dude here that used to like to try to have pissing matches with me whenever I had a different opinion from him, so I got exhausted and quit. God forbid someone not love milk....LOL. But I missed the forums so I'm back under a new name.
So, hi I guess.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Cupcake! Sorry to hear about your past issues with the non-stop disagreements. I hope this time around is better. I know what you mean: I used to be part of another forum where we had one regular who would take the opposition to any issue, up to and including all-caps screaming at people over whether frozen or fresh vegetables were better (this was not a nutrition forum. It was a cosplay forum). Learning to not care about the opinions of people like that is a valuable skill.

Hello everyone.

I've seen this thread pop up on the main forum page and decided to check it out. I identified as hetero for most of my life, but in recent years, I've become less sure. My boyfriend has known that I'm at least bi-curious, while I'm finding that panromantic (with a potential dash of demisexual) seems to fit a little better for me (despite the fact I've only ever been in hetero relationships).

I don't know why, but just felt like getting it out here, maybe in an effort to understand myself a bit better, and also get to know you amazing people.

As noted, there is no test you need to pass to qualify here. We're a safe space, so the point is kindness, acceptance, and being judgment-free to LGBTetc. folks. Welcome!

Frost of the Gloaming · January 26, 2015

I have to agree with Cupcake, Milk is GROSS!!!!!!

kaelvan · January 26, 2015

I have to agree with Cupcake, Milk is GROSS!!!!!!

Especially when you leave it a second out of the fridge. It tastes off...or is it just my hang up of milk again speaking? .......I like ice cream though

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