Bear Up Them Slim Down, or Reverse?

[Thrillho]

So, a question, and it might be a big one for me, because I keep waffling back and forth, and not sticking to any one plan. I get bored with one method, switch it up, and I'm just not holding myself to any real rules.

Is it better to muscle-up, then trim down, or trim down and then muscle up?

I am 6'4" and about 250 pounds. I have a lot of body fat to lose, and a lot of muscle to regain. I have problems with food, particularly a terrible ability to control portions and a general pervasive, gnawing desire to snack. When I try to slim down, I up my cardio and running and cut back on my food, but that never lasts and I end up back at the overeating trough, and THEN I focus on power-lifting, and I have heard that going back and forth like that can defeat the purpose of both. That and my weight hasn't really budged in two months.

SO. I am looking for a verdict. Or at least advice. Or just to be steered in the right direction. If I have ONE GOAL, and it's backed up by the enormous awesomeness of the NF crowd, I know I can stick with it better. Should I focus slightly less on my diet (quantity-wise), and go hard in the paint with my weights, OR should I get back into my lean-eating low-carb habits and focus on my treadmill and sprinting? Is it easier to build muscle if I've got some body fat on me, or should I shed the flab and then build up with a nice, trim foundation?

Thanks!

[Waldo]

Gaining muscle is 80% diet, same as losing.

Muscle gain in a surplus is most efficient in the 10-15% BF range (for Men). Above and below that you tend to gain more fat.

The metabolic effects of muscle mass are very small.

I would lose before gaining.

[dtrumbower]

Watch your diet and lift weights at the same time. You don't have to run to lose fat lbs. If you enjoy lifting than start a good basic program that has you doing squats, dead lifts, bench, rows and over head press.

Make daily and weekly goals and stick to them.

[rtalencar]

Getting some cardio in consistently is important from an overall health perspective, but as folks have mentioned is not necessary for weight loss.

Almost exclusively, if you have a fair amount to lose, cut first and then bulk.

[mksiemens]

yah definitely agree with what everyone has already said.

diet wise focus on eating right and losing the body fat.

but for your workouts, imo, if you're looking to lift and gain muscle, then start lifting to gain muscle. once you've lost the fat you want, if you want more mass then you have, then think about bulking up again.

[Thrillho]

Diet. Reduced calorie intake, and/or paleo, or whatever diet actually *works* for you, to eat healthily for an ongoing basis. *Not* a crash diet.

Generally just reduced-carb. I LIKE carbs. A lot. All summer when I lost weight like a boss, it was mostly diet since I was generally living off of fruit, Diet Coke and sausages (I worked a hot dog cart, and I would eat there all day, but no buns).

Also, take some time out to think about what *inspires* you. What exercise is something you're really passionate about? That you look forward to, rather than dreading? Do that.

Fighting. Heavy bag work. Improved kicking power and punching power.

Analyse what's gone wrong in the past with your diet. What tempts you to "break"? What stops you going back to your diet, after a slip up? What changes would make a diet more maintainable?

Home-made foods (my wife is a cook). 88 junk foot outlets within a stone's throw of my office (I am drinking McCoffee right now). Stress-snacking (I am losing my m&*(%f*(*()ing mind over school and work right now).

... Focus on being a loser! Will do!

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I have the same food issues.

Originally I was going to slim down first then muscle up, but enjoyed lifting so much that I said screw it and muscled up first. From a journey standpoint I think it was the right decision because it got me enjoying working out more than if I had slimmed first. I just started slimming and am actually really motivated to do it well now so that I can get back to lifting 3-4 times a week instead of just 2 (I only do 2 so I am only in a surplus 2 days a week). That motivation helps me stay stricter than I have in the past. It also makes me do the slimming in a more healthy way as this time around I'm keeping it to a 500 calorie deficit rather than 1000 so I avoid losing my hard gained muscle. Strengthening first also made the cardio funner because the lifting improved my endurance and top end speeds, so I'm "better" at the cardio.

From an effectiveness standpoint I hear a lot of 12-18% bodyfat range is the most effective zone for gaining muscle, but I'm not sure if I see it a bunch of places or I just see Waldo posting it over and over. (Not taking a dig Waldo, I honestly don't know if it's widespread among sources or the source is widesprad). If it's true, it might have been more effective to do it the other way around and I'd be further along the end goal path, but I'm glad I did it my way for the psychological reason.

[rtalencar]

From an effectiveness standpoint I hear a lot of 12-18% bodyfat range is the most effective zone for gaining muscle, but I'm not sure if I see it a bunch of places or I just see Waldo posting it over and over. (Not taking a dig Waldo, I honestly don't know if it's widespread among sources or the source is widesprad). If it's true, it might have been more effective to do it the other way around and I'd be further along the end goal path, but I'm glad I did it my way for the psychological reason.

Lyle has posted about this

Meaning this: if you start a mass gaining phase at too high of a body fat percentage (say 12-15%), you’re going to gain some fat during that phase and end up in the high teens or worse. This makes dieting back to a non-fat assed body fat percentage a real hassle. Better to keep things in check by alternating periods of cutting and gaining.

As well, it seems empirically that once body fat gets to the 15% range or so for men, fat gains tend to accelerate during mass gaining phases. I suspect this is due to the development of systemic insulin resistance which causes calories to go into fat stores more readily. Keeping body fat levels below that may be helpful.

I should mention that there was always an anecdotal idea that mass gains were best with body fat about 10-12% body fat (for men, add 9-12% for women). While I had always dismissed this as being an excuse to stay fat, I suspect it’s probably close to correct. Based on what’s going on hormonally and physiologically at both low and higher body fat percentages, this may very well be a sweet spot for mass gaining. You’re fed and healthy enough to lift well and make gains but not so fat that other problems arise.

[Waldo]

From an effectiveness standpoint I hear a lot of 12-18% bodyfat range is the most effective zone for gaining muscle, but I'm not sure if I see it a bunch of places or I just see Waldo posting it over and over. (Not taking a dig Waldo, I honestly don't know if it's widespread among sources or the source is widesprad). If it's true, it might have been more effective to do it the other way around and I'd be further along the end goal path, but I'm glad I did it my way for the psychological reason.

As well, it seems empirically that once body fat gets to the 15% range or so for men, fat gains tend to accelerate during mass gaining phases. I suspect this is due to the development of systemic insulin resistance which causes calories to go into fat stores more readily. Keeping body fat levels below that may be helpful.

I should mention that there was always an anecdotal idea that mass gains were best with body fat about 10-12% body fat (for men, add 9-12% for women). While I had always dismissed this as being an excuse to stay fat, I suspect it’s probably close to correct. Based on what’s going on hormonally and physiologically at both low and higher body fat percentages, this may very well be a sweet spot for mass gaining. You’re fed and healthy enough to lift well and make gains but not so fat that other problems arise.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

Using my own personal experiment, I got down to about 12% BF (in hindsight, thought it was 10% at the time), bulked for 19 weeks, gained about 14 lbs, and gained only a very small amount of fat, maybe 1% BF, so my personal experience is in line with this.

^^Edit - Damn, beat me to it. ^^

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Awesome, thanks guys. I've seen it thrown around but didn't know where it came from... Now to go lose 25-35 lb...

[Atalan]

I can only add that slimming before bulking has helped me be motivated, because having tried the opposite, I visually see the changes in slimming much more readily. I can point to the weekly pictures I take and go "That fold isn't there any more, go me!" When I tried to bulk, it just felt like my legs and arms were getting bigger, but not from muscle.

[Thrillho]

I'm fine with reduced-carb, since I ALSO like meat. It's just trickier, since carbs are cheaper and more plentiful, and I generally don't like vegetables. I am thinking of living off of chili again for a while. My home-made chili is loaded with peas, corn, carrots, onions, tomatoes, lentils, peppers, etc... along with ground beef and beans. It's pretty awesome. The problem with any diet I'm on is I need to enjoy what I'm eating. If I enjoy it, then I have no problems sticking to it, even to the point of resisting temptation from other tasty sources.

I enjoy running, and I enjoy getting my running time down and making my body do things I never thought it could do, so I want to incorporate running as well as martial arts. I have a power-training book specifically designed for martial arts practitioners, and I want to put together a fun workout from that.

Right now my difficulty is finding time to work out, SO I might mulligan it until November. Every minute of the next couple weeks is packed full with finishing my first semester of my bachelor's degree (AUGH SO MANY PAPERS TO WRITE) and I briefly fell asleep while driving on the highway tonight. Waking up early to work out = bad plan.

I am going to enjoy the next couple weeks, eat some Hallowe'en candy, and then try and slay November.

[Erick the Red]

I had a co-worker that had played sport at university but then gotten flabby. He used Weight Watchers (would not have been my choice) to lose a lot of fat, and then heavy weights to put it all back in the right places. He looks really great now, and I'm sure he feels great. At the beginning I would have suggested that he work on the muscle before the fat, but I think he chose the right path and taught me something.

[rtalencar]

I'm fine with reduced-carb, since I ALSO like meat. It's just trickier, since carbs are cheaper and more plentiful, and I generally don't like vegetables. I am thinking of living off of chili again for a while. My home-made chili is loaded with peas, corn, carrots, onions, tomatoes, lentils, peppers, etc... along with ground beef and beans. It's pretty awesome. The problem with any diet I'm on is I need to enjoy what I'm eating. If I enjoy it, then I have no problems sticking to it, even to the point of resisting temptation from other tasty sources.

I enjoy running, and I enjoy getting my running time down and making my body do things I never thought it could do, so I want to incorporate running as well as martial arts. I have a power-training book specifically designed for martial arts practitioners, and I want to put together a fun workout from that.

Right now my difficulty is finding time to work out, SO I might mulligan it until November. Every minute of the next couple weeks is packed full with finishing my first semester of my bachelor's degree (AUGH SO MANY PAPERS TO WRITE) and I briefly fell asleep while driving on the highway tonight. Waking up early to work out = bad plan.

I am going to enjoy the next couple weeks, eat some Hallowe'en candy, and then try and slay November.

Not sure if you're like me in this regard but I can eat the same thing day in and day out (assuming I like it) and be fine. When I get back from Vegas next Monday I'm going to start a diet of steamed veggies (BORING, will just see how fast I can wolf them down), protein shakes, and a whole chicken a day (woohoo $4 30 oz chickens at the supermarket). I'll occassionally switch the chicken up with slow cooked beef ribs, but with sriracha and taking multivitamins and fish oil, I could keep that diet up forever and it hits all my macros.

I can't do an entire paper of any real length in one sitting, I have to take occassional breaks and walk around and such. Work in your gym clothes, and do BW workouts on your breaks. Just a thought.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Not sure if you're like me in this regard but I can eat the same thing day in and day out (assuming I like it) and be fine. When I get back from Vegas next Monday I'm going to start a diet of steamed veggies (BORING, will just see how fast I can wolf them down), protein shakes, and a whole chicken a day (woohoo $4 30 oz chickens at the supermarket). I'll occassionally switch the chicken up with slow cooked beef ribs, but with sriracha and taking multivitamins and fish oil, I could keep that diet up forever and it hits all my macros.

I can't do an entire paper of any real length in one sitting, I have to take occassional breaks and walk around and such. Work in your gym clothes, and do BW workouts on your breaks. Just a thought.

Same wau. If my wife wasn't so into cooking, I would eat the exact same thing every day. As it is I eat 1 lb of chicken breast marinated in some 30 minute marinade every day for lunch and almonds if I need a snack. I skip breakfast but am considering changing that next time around to see if it changes my results with weight loss. Last time I was succesful I would have a small breakfast high in protein every morning upon waking, so thinnking of doing 2 scoops of whey for breakast every morning.

[Thrillho]

Not sure if you're like me in this regard but I can eat the same thing day in and day out (assuming I like it) and be fine.

I can. My wife can't, it drives her insane. We didn't have rice for probably six months because our rice-addicted kids completely burned her out on that. Me? Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am jealous of the chickens, though! The chickens here are 2.5 pounds, $8.99. Can't really justify that on a daily basis. $6 for a raw chicken, but I don't really have time to cook and eat a whole chicken myself, every day, and not get laughed at.

For a while, probably 6 months a couple years ago, my diet was: Fibre One with skim milk for breakfast, two cans of sardines / herring on Stone Wheat Crackers for lunch, and chili for dinner. Easily five days a week for six months. It was delicious, and I lost about fifteen pounds without really trying, and it hit all of my cravings for meat, salt, carbs and dairy. This is why I want to try going on chili for a while, since it's super-healthy, low fat, high meat, high legumes, high vegetables, and delicious. I LOVE spicy food. I could live off of chili quite easily.

I want to try and find some way to get me out of the office at lunch, but not go to the fast food places. A jog over to Olde Towne Market at lunch, buy a banana and an apple, then jog back and have my chili, maybe.

[Waldo]

Same wau. If my wife wasn't so into cooking, I would eat the exact same thing every day. As it is I eat 1 lb of chicken breast marinated in some 30 minute marinade every day for lunch and almonds if I need a snack. I skip breakfast but am considering changing that next time around to see if it changes my results with weight loss. Last time I was succesful I would have a small breakfast high in protein every morning upon waking, so thinnking of doing 2 scoops of whey for breakast every morning.

I've given up pretty much on making fancy things for breakfast. Bowl of cereal or a protein bar for me. Quick n' easy.

[Jord]

I have problems with food, particularly a terrible ability to control portions and a general pervasive, gnawing desire to snack.

After learning quite a bit about sugar, I discovered it really was consuming sugar that was causing me to have food cravings and the desire to snack. Now that I severely limit my added sugars, I crave less. I still snack, but now I am able to snack smart (fruit, vegetables, low-fat cheese).

I removed from my diet:

Sweets (obvious) except maybe one small thing every other week

Fruit juices & other sweetened drinks

Breakfast cereals

Fruit snacks

Don't make dinners that add sugar (like sweet sour meals)

Avoid alcohol whenever possible, sad but true! (Save it for special social occasions)

Not directly sugar but I also removed heavy carbs like bagels and stick to whole grains and smaller portions

For things that have sugar but I still want to eat I find it with the least sugar possible such as protein/fiber bars, yogurt, and bread. I'm slowly weaning off putting ketchup on my breakfast food when I go out to eat. I consider fruit okay sugar to eat, but I try to lean towards the lower sugared fruits. Berries have the lowest sugar, bananas and grapes have the highest.

Manufacturers sneak sugar into everything! So i read labels and seek out brands with no sugar, like for instance peanut butter often contains sugar, so I found a brand without.

Dr. Lustig, endocrinologist to tell you all about sugar:

There are many blogs of people converting to a sugar free life style, that is my ultimate goal, I consider myself about half way there. I absolutely eat way less food now that I watch my sugars!

[Waldo]

After learning quite a bit about sugar, I discovered it really was consuming sugar that was causing me to have food cravings and the desire to snack. Now that I severely limit my added sugars, I crave less. I still snack, but now I am able to snack smart (fruit, vegetables, low-fat cheese).

Snacking is a habit that you can totally eliminate if you want to.

Don't eat outside of meal times. Within a few weeks you will totally lose all desire to eat outside of meal times.

Has nothing to do with sugar. We are creatures of habit. Habits can be altered within reason. Steve has written extensively on habit changing.