LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Bekah]

oh no hon I'm so sorry! I wish I had something more to give than hugs.

[Reluctant Amazon]

Fwiw. I am a little better

today. This is just gonna be a big thing till its not

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[SolitaryOrchid]

 

An interesting theory you have there.

 

On a side note: getting real sick of this recovery bullshit.

 

 

If you're talking about the recovery I think you are then super congrats!!!

Sorry you're having trouble though. Hope it gets better. Recovery is never pleasant.

 

My wife. No I'm not OK. I am really messed up. I'm gonna lose my marriage. Or never get dysphoria. Under control. I feel like I want to go find every anti trans article ever and build a wall of trans phobic denial I can't escape from

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I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. I know it must be hard. I wish there was something I could do to help. You have my sympathies. Wish tehre was more I could give you.

[Reluctant Amazon]

It's seriously better now.  We realized that this is not the time to worry about this.  And I'm willing to consider options less than full dose HRT, but presenting mostly female.

[SolitaryOrchid]

I hope everything works out for you, Amazon.

 

I know this isn't a trans-specific board so I hope no one minds me bringing up an exclusively trans topic.

Is anyone else really upset with this whole Rachel Dolezal situation and how it hurts the trans community? Not only do people use transracial as a way to trash transgender identities but to top it off the consensus here seems to be that she lied about it for her own gain. I've already seen people come to the conclusion that transgender people are just doing the same thing and should not be taken seriously.

 

I've seen the idea of transracial people used to delegitimize the transgender experience with a certain blogger claiming that he is now transsquid and I've seen that get a decent bit of support from people I follow. It really pisses me off that I can't mount as effective an argument against it without outing myself, which would be dangerous in my position. Besides, the people who typically follow this particular blogger tend to be the "Ignore science at all costs!" types which doesn't help matters.

 

I don't know what stresses me out more, seeing the ignorance and feeling like I have no real option to help counter it or seeing that it would be a lost cause even if I tried. I'm really worried about the effect this whole situation can have on people who don't understand what it really means to be transgender, especially parents of younger children.

[Hit]

 

 

Is anyone else really upset with this whole Rachel Dolezal situation and how it hurts the trans community?

 

Well, no. Because the idea of "trans-racial" doesn't hurt the transgender community imo. The people who draw comparisons already hate on trans folk, and every time something like this makes the news it brings all these bigots to the surface like worms in the rain. 

 

That being said I have so, so, so, so many issues with the way people have been talking about Dolezal so ima get my rant pants on for a second. Buckle in.

 

1) The biggest argument being levied at Dolezal is "trans peoples brains resemble their target genders, you can have a womans brain but you cant have a black brain" and such. First, science does not back that up, and second by making the argument about science we just set up more boxes to jump through in order to prove our own identities and validate our lives. We already argue against basing our identities on chromosomes or sex organs, arguing based on brains (when the "studies" are shaky at best) is fighting against ourselves. The kicker is that how we feel about ourselves, how we identify and how we experience life is more important than our biology. Ie we dont have to be born a certain way to be treated with respect.

 

2) The secondary arguments are so goddamn TERF-esque its almost satirical, but again trans people are retweeting quips asking if Dolezal "thinks being black is all about a hairstyle?" or dressing a certain way. Compared to the arguments leveled at Caitlyn Jenner, asking if she thought being a woman was all make up, sleep overs and pillow fights. Dolezals appearance has been pulled under the bus and spat out on the asphalt here, in the most public and vitriolic outing imaginable, and that is so far from okay. 

 

3) The idea that the "black community" is pissed off at her, and somehow we need to respect "their" wishes. Now, I sure as fuck never ask the "womens community" for permission to be a woman, and the idea is ridiculous. Nor does the presence of some women refusing to acknowledge trans women as women stop me being a woman, they can suck eggs. Hell, Dolezal even has (or had) the support of one black community anywa, the Spokane NAACP charter she was the head of.

 

4) Beyond these bullshit arguments (that so eloquently mirror those aimed at transgender people) come the accusations of lying for her own gain. I've heard allegations she lied about her parents, lied about having kids, and lied about her own childhood. So, lying is generally bad right, and lying for personal gain is pretty universally frowned upon. But again, this isn't really so dissimilar from the types of things trans people say or do while living stealth. Ive lied to health care professionals who asked when my last period was, Ive lied to men at the bar about my childhood when they asked about whether or not I still had my uniform from my time at a private high school. That is, unfortunately, the cost of living stealth, or simply not wanting to disclose ones trans status to every person they meet. 

 

5) The "she needs help" and "she's dealing with problems in her life by building up a false persona". This is an extenstion of the lying argument but with a dash more superiority and false concern - two things that are very common in the anti-trans crowd. Whether or not this is the case is not for spectators to decide and keyboard warriors pretending to be psychologists aren't helping Dolezal, they are only condemming her. 

 

So yeh, that's how i feel about it. We, as a community, don't need to exactly back Dolezal or the concept of trans-racial identites. But what we do have to be careful about is how we scrutinize other peoples identities, and not jump to the common anti-trans arguments in the process. Personally I feel that if someone identifies a certain way and takes steps to live that way, then that's what matters. If Dolezal identifies as a black person, is living as a black person and is happy doing so, then power to her. How she was born is irrelevant in the face of how she chooses to live her life. 

 

Similarly if someone really identifies as a squid and wants to get rid of all their bones and go live in the ocean, I won't stand in their way. But squids can't talk or write or use the internet, so I'm not sure how they'd go about telling me this. 

[Reluctant Amazon]

It's not all makeup, sleepoverts and pillow fights?

Then how... Why would you..

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[Jett]

Fwiw. I am a little better

today. This is just gonna be a big thing till its not

 

Hey, RA, glad to hear that you and your wife worked it out for now. As the wife of a transwoman who is just starting into the first stages of transition, I can say that it's... weird. Intellectually, I'm fine with it. Sexually, I'm fine with it. It's actually the social aspect and the subconscious expectations that I don't even always realize I have that are the hard part.

 

There's the obvious, "will my family and friends freak out about this when she comes out?" aspect. I'm mentally preparing for that now, and by the time she can't hide it anymore, I'll be ready for the backlash. But, I won't lie, it's a scary prospect. I know it's probably even scarier for you, and for my spouse, because it's direct rejection of self that you're facing. But it's difficult for us, too. I come from a conservative family, and they don't know I'm pansexual. So my wife's coming out is a coming out for me, too. And one thing I'm really dreading is the pity party that I know will be directed my way. The, "how could he do this to you?" and assumptions that will be made about me and why I'm staying with her. I'm expecting two different, but equally awkward reactions: "You don't have to stay with him/her out of sympathy" and "How do you deal with it? You're such a strong person." It's like... come on. This is still the same person I married. Of course I love her. Of course it's weird now, but it's not like she's a serial killer or something. It's a surmountable difficulty that would be a lot easier if people stopped remarking on it.

 

The harder part, because it's internal, are the expectations that aren't always fulfilled. I still have these buried ideas about how our lives should look in the future, and sometimes one of them will pop up and slap me in the face, as I realize that it's not going to happen. I also sometimes expect "him" to act certain ways, only to have to remind myself that such behavior is against her nature. That becomes awkward, sometimes. Who takes the so-called "male role" in an all-female relationship? I guess lesbians figure this out, but the added wrinkle here is that when we got married, "he" was trying extra-hard to be the perfect husband, in a powerful fit of denial. I kind of got used to the roles we worked out during that time, but it was the strain of basically trying to fill her dad's shoes that really pushed her over the edge to dysphoria and suicidal depression. So, obviously, we don't want to go back to that, but it's been uncomfortable trying to work out who should do what in what situations. For a year or so, we've been in this state of awkwardly dancing around who is the decision-maker of the household. Trying to be totally democratic about things isn't working for us. I'm realizing more and more that her personality is more of a follower than a leader. It's not actually unnatural for me to be in the role of the leader; I was always the person who came up with ideas and made them happen among my friends in high school. Problem is, in hindsight I can see that I was kind of an asshole back then. I've tried hard since then to be a better person, through listening respectfully to what everyone has to say, and making sure that decisions are always resolved through a democratic-style vote; I try hard not to enforce my will on other people. I don't want to become a jerk again, but I have to find a way to fill the more dominant role in the household (the traditionally "masculine" role) without reverting to being an asshole in the process. Bleh.

 

Wow, that was a little more personal than I usually get. I guess your posts touched a bit of a raw nerve in me. I seriously considered editing a lot of that out, but I decided to leave it as a window into the issues of a particular couple going through transition. The issues aren't always what you'd expect, but they're real. They're also, I believe, completely surmountable. We just need to keep our channels of communication open, try different things, and find out what works for us. 

 

Is there anyone on this board who is married to or dating a trans person that was with them throughout the transition? Or a trans person whose SO stayed through the transition? I'd love to hear a perspective from someone who's already gone through these issues. I'd also love to hear from gay couples, how did you resolve who takes on what roles? I'm not necessarily talking about traditionally masculine or feminine roles, although that's a part of it, but more like - who's the breadwinner? Who deals with the finances? Who takes care of the kids? Who does the cooking? And how did you decide who does what?

[SolitaryOrchid]

Well, no. Because the idea of "trans-racial" doesn't hurt the transgender community imo. The people who draw comparisons already hate on trans folk, and every time something like this makes the news it brings all these bigots to the surface like worms in the rain. 

 

That's a very interesting point and one I hadn't considered. My concern is more for those who are ignorant rather than hateful. I know people who only think what they do about trans people because of what they've been fed by bigots and worry this is just more feed that could turn the ignorant into bigots. Though whether or not that is founded in reality or just worry on my part is questionable.

 

 

we dont have to be born a certain way to be treated with respect.

 

Totally agree.

 

I agree that people should be free to live happily, whatever that means for them and don't take issue with the concept of transracial identity in and of itself, just with this particular situation my understanding of it (which could be completely wrong) is that she has been faking a transracial identity for financial gain. From that I've seen people conclude that all transgender people are faking it as well and to an outside eye who knows little about transgender issues I could see this easily swaying their opinion even if they hold no malice. While there are definitely plenty of bigots out there, sometimes people are only against transgender people because of a lack of understanding and I don't see this situation helping in that department any.

 

 

But what we do have to be careful about is how we scrutinize other peoples identities, and not jump to the common anti-trans arguments in the process.

 

A lot of conversation I've seen on the topic definitely stems into TERF ...uh... turf. Especially from people who are attacking the concept of transracial identity itself. I've seen a lot where if you just replace the word transracial with transgender it's almost verbatim TERF sludge and I don't think it should be that way. 

[SolitaryOrchid]

Is there anyone on this board who is married to or dating a trans person that was with them throughout the transition? Or a trans person whose SO stayed through the transition? I'd love to hear a perspective from someone who's already gone through these issues. I'd also love to hear from gay couples, how did you resolve who takes on what roles? I'm not necessarily talking about traditionally masculine or feminine roles, although that's a part of it, but more like - who's the breadwinner? Who deals with the finances? Who takes care of the kids? Who does the cooking? And how did you decide who does what?

 

You know a bit about my story but I thought it might be helpful to add in a bit about the roles since I'm not sure if we've ever discussed that any.

 

Originally my husband was hell-bound to make a "good wife" out of me. I was forced into gender roles I neither fit into, wanted, or were any good at. The level of control was really bordering on abuse. But we did finally manage to move past that. And everything from then on has been discovered by keeping an open line of communication, an open mind, and lots of experimenting.

 

My husband is a spender and I'm a saver so it makes sense that I would be handling the finances. I'm an amazing cook so I pick up that one. Hubs does the dishes and that kind of evolved from the fact that I absolutely hate that particular chore and I do the laundry because he hates that one as much as I hate dishes. Our system came from a kind of what do I hate less than he does/what do I hate more than he does system. It took lots of talking and trying things out.

[Frost of the Gloaming]

Gender roles do not matter in my relationship, we are on equal terms when it comes to bread winning but for a while she was making more than me and I was/am cool with that, I take care of the kids, do laundry, dishes, we split cooking, she pays the bills, calls contractors/mechanics;

 

From the outside in it looks like she is the leader, but I'm not really a follower

 

Really as Orchid said communication is key

[petefeet]

 Our system came from a kind of what do I hate less than he does/what do I hate more than he does system. It took lots of talking and trying things out.

 

I think that's the same in ANY relationship, whether straight, bi, gay or whatever. Deep down we're all the same imo.

[Twilight]

Just as a point of interest, transracial is a legitimate term that has been used in adoption communities for years: https://www.americanadoptions.com/adopt/transracial_adoption

 

NOT in the way it's being used now with Rachel Dolzeal.

[Artinum]

I'd also love to hear from gay couples, how did you resolve who takes on what roles? I'm not necessarily talking about traditionally masculine or feminine roles, although that's a part of it, but more like - who's the breadwinner? Who deals with the finances? Who takes care of the kids? Who does the cooking? And how did you decide who does what?

 

I can't speak for trans issues (I have no idea who this Rachel person even is) but as one half of a gay couple I can say... it doesn't really work that way. He's the main earner, so that makes him the breadwinner (but we'd struggle on his income alone, so my contribution is still significant). He pays most of the bills via direct debit, and I transfer a contribution each month by standing order.

 

I'm probably the "wife" in the relationship, as I'm the one that handles the laundry, the shopping, the cooking and so on. But I'm also the tech guy and the odd job man, and he usually does the ironing. I'm the one who removes spiders from the house. We hire a gardener and a cleaner, as we really can't be bothered with either of these things.

 

We don't have any children as such - but we dote on the cat! We both work full time so she largely takes care of herself. We both feed her (and we're careful to coordinate that so she doesn't con us into feeding her twice).

 

How did we decide on roles? I think we just fell into them. I'm more skilled at cooking than he is (before we met, he would live on bread, cheese and chocolate, and I quickly got him away from drinking instant tea - yuck!) but he's got a proper career while I just careered between office jobs.

[Latsu Swagneel]

As promised, here is a picture of the finished product on my hair!

BI PRIDE HAIR!!!!

Sent front phone. Any mistakes are its fault.

[Jett]

As promised, here is a picture of the finished product on my hair!

BI PRIDE HAIR!!!!

 

OMG that looks amazing!

[Reluctant Amazon]

In some ways I'm "less trans" than other people. I don't mind fulfilling male roles, especially romantically. (I know less trans is stupid)

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[ColoQ]

In some ways I'm "less trans" than other people. I don't mind fulfilling male roles, especially romantically. (I know less trans is stupid)

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In some ways I'm a totally awesomely nuanced trans person. I don't mind fulfilling traditionally "butch" or masculine gender roles: especially romantically, while still being the woman I know I totally am (I know I'm very awesome)..

 

My brain reinterpreted what I think you meant to say...

[Twilight]

GREAT HAIR!!

[SolitaryOrchid]

Badass hair! I might consider doing the trans flag in mine if having pink on my person didn't cause such crippling dysphoria. Maybe I'll get over that when I'm passing more than 50% of the time.

[jackwolf]

Hi everyone. I recently joined the forums and started my first challenge. Just realized I there was a LGBTQ thread and thought I'd pop in to say hi.

 

Also, that is some really cool hair there!

[Vella]

Agreed with the consensus - the hair is amazing and I love it.

 

RA - probably a bit late, but you have my wholehearted sympathies. I hope things will work out OK for you.

 

Although I've not been in a long-term relationship, especially not now after coming out, my parents had a relationship that was very much an inversion of traditional gender roles. Mum worked, and handled most of the finances. Dad cooked, cleaned, and ferried me to and from school. It wasn't until I was most of the way through primary school that I started to realise that most people were surprised when I talked about "Dad picking me up from school" because they fell into those roles so naturally. Their relationship is a bit of an odd mix in terms of decision making though - Mum usually makes the executive decisions, and frequently suggests the ideas, but it's definitely not like Dad doesn't have a say. He will often voice criticism of the decision she's making, or point out aspects of the problem that need to be addressed, and come up with ideas to address them, and Mum incorporates them into the solution so that it works out. Sometimes it can seem like Mum makes a decision and just runs it by Dad for formality's sake so he can say 'yes' before it happens, but under the hood, so to speak, it's a pretty give-and-take situation. Maybe that sort of thing would work best for you, JMitch? It would take a bit of time working out when "yes" means "Yes, OK" and "yes ..." means "I've got reservations, but I'm not sure how to phrase them just yet" (one of the big distinctions I had to learn talking to my Dad), or whatever the little communication quirks are in your particular relationship, but that's another experience that it might be worth thinking about. 

 

*shrugs* Feel free to ignore all that, though. I don't know you personally, and I'm not exactly a qualified life coach or anything. You do you, and figure out what works for you two, with trial and error and understanding.

[ryan4567]

Hey everyone! Just checking in and saying hi, new to NF. Pretty keen to get started!

[Jett]

Hey everyone! Just checking in and saying hi, new to NF. Pretty keen to get started!

Welcome, Ryan!

 

Thanks for all the responses about figuring out roles in a relationship, guys. I'm mostly hearing, "try things and talk about it until you find what fits naturally," and that's pretty much what I expected. But I really enjoy hearing stories about how other people figured it out; the more examples I see, the more easily I can wrap my head around alternative solutions. Both my parents and my spouse's had fairly traditional gender roles, but in my relationship, we're definitely heading toward a model that looks a lot like Vella's parents. And I'm excited about that, just getting used to the changes, since we didn't start out that way.

[Latsu Swagneel]

With Pride being this Sunday, I'm letting anybody in NYC know that I will be in the parade, marching in the bisexual/non-monosexual group.

Here is a link for the meetup of anybody wishes to go with me:

http://meetu.ps/2HFQ8C

Also, I got a haircut and my industrial...here is the best picture I was able to take that shows both:

Sent front phone. Any mistakes are its fault.