Convict Conditioning

[Rhino]

Alright guys. Thanks for everyone's input. I believe I'm going to try and stick pretty strictly to the CC program and see what happens. Planning on doing cycling for about 30 minutes on my off days. I'm the type of person that does better with a strict plan (even if some of it may be superfluous). I'll try to update on how things go. Thanks!

[Loren Wade]

Alright guys. Thanks for everyone's input. I believe I'm going to try and stick pretty strictly to the CC program and see what happens. Planning on doing cycling for about 30 minutes on my off days. I'm the type of person that does better with a strict plan (even if some of it may be superfluous). I'll try to update on how things go. Thanks!

Perfect. I did the same thing, except I ran. Let me know if you have questions, I'm happy to help. I think you'll love it. I certainly do.

[Rhino]

Perfect. I did the same thing, except I ran. Let me know if you have questions, I'm happy to help. I think you'll love it. I certainly do.

Already beat you to the punch. Check your inbox. Haha!

[MMyers]

I wasn't asking you to respond anymore. You brought up I sounded angry as if that's going to settle everything, and I tried reasoning with you just person to person trying to find some common ground so we could settle this, and NOW you answer? If you really think I needed your answer, you're delusional.

This whole thing was pretty much me posting 3-4 sentences, you writing an essay in response, me responding with counterpoints, and then you just carrying on, acting like I totally agreed with you, which is must have been why you were exasperated to find I was pissed off. Seriously, I asked you what you were trying to accomplish, but you didn't even answer that, and then you expect me to answer the same question, the difference being just asked by yourself. So, of course you expect me to answer it. I mean, you can criticize things you've never done, but I can't criticize your points without you ignoring what I brought up, so I guess going by that logic anything is possible.

But really, all you said was this anyway, and just shows how pointless this is, because you think you're entirely justified in expecting to criticize something without having your points criticized. And when that happens, you expect saying that the other person is "angry" is a valid reason to not write an actual response.

I also am totally lost as to why you are so angry (thus near impossible to respond to).

That line is hilarious by the way.

[Waldo]

I wasn't asking you to respond anymore. You brought up I sounded angry as if that's going to settle everything, and I tried reasoning with you just person to person trying to find some common ground so we could settle this, and NOW you answer? If you really think I needed your answer, you're delusional.

This whole thing was pretty much me posting 3-4 sentences, you writing an essay in response, me responding with counterpoints, and then you just carrying on, acting like I totally agreed with you, which is must have been why you were exasperated to find I was pissed off. Seriously, I asked you what you were trying to accomplish, but you didn't even answer that, and then you expect me to answer the same question, the difference being just asked by yourself. So, of course you expect me to answer it. I mean, you can criticize things you've never done, but I can't criticize your points without you ignoring what I brought up, so I guess going by that logic anything is possible.

But really, all you said was this anyway, and just shows how pointless this is, because you think you're entirely justified in expecting to criticize something without having your points criticized. And when that happens, you expect saying that the other person is "angry" is a valid reason to not write an actual response.

That line is hilarious by the way.

When you post that what I wrote is dumb bullshit, you sound like an angry idiot that shouldn't be responded to as it is merely feeding troll.

Fixed that for you. Seriously dude... what are you trying to accomplish with this dumb bullshit? Convince everybody not to do it? I don't in the first place. OP, Rhino, sorry this turned into this dumb shit...

I now know that Convict Conditioning is for people who want to get strong with a program that won't take them two hours a day, and Coach Sommer's work is trying to learn very specific movements AND build as much raw strength as possible.

LOL....and the difference is.....???

(CC - build up to master steps, very specific movements, getting strong in the process, BtGB - learn specific movements and get as strong as possible. So BtGB takes 2 hours a day? The irony being that the dynamic moves of BtGB tend to be in very low rep ranges and thus not take long at all, the general criticism of a trait CC lacks that I've put forth).

[MMyers]

When you post that what I wrote is dumb bullshit, you sound like an angry idiot that shouldn't be responded to as it is merely feeding troll.

What makes you so sure you can't say stupid things? Where can I get the immunization from saying dumb bullshit that you apparently have? The fact that you're so sure of yourself is what makes you so annoying.

And who are you to say I'm a troll? You're just a person with a huge ego who doesn't like to be challenged, so who cares about you or what you say?

The fact that you would be insulted for anybody to even SUGGEST that you're points are useless just shows how self-important you are.

[MMyers]

Or you can just edit your post again, that's cool too.

I was referring to how CC only takes a half an hour at most in most cases, with 2 hours being an example of no program in particular, just showing one of its benefits with an extreme comparison.

And nobody cares what you think of the rep ranges, we've done this already.

[Waldo]

What makes you so sure you can't say stupid things? Where can I get the immunization from saying dumb bullshit that you apparently have? The fact that you're so sure of yourself is what makes you so annoying.

And who are you to say I'm a troll? You're just a person with a huge ego who doesn't like to be challenged, so who cares about you or what you say?

The fact that you would be insulted for anybody to even SUGGEST that you're points are useless just shows how self-important you are.

Honestly, are you having a conversation with yourself in your head that is kinda making its way into this thread only vaguely related to what I'm typing?

You should really go back and reread this thread from the beginning.

Dear god, you are insanely worked up over my saying the rep progressions CC aren't that good and there are other ways of going about it. I am not the only person saying this and if you look around elsewhere many, many, many people feel this way also, including many that have done the program strict for a while.

I feel as if I am bearing the brunt of an argument you've been having for a long time with an unknown ghost about many things that you have seen and read here and elsewhere, and that I am at best vaguely aware of this and know none of the finer points of this argument yet you seem to think I am a fully knowledgable opponent in this long standing argument.

The higher reps are fine, Strength isn't solely defined by the Rep range you use. Some people say the One Arm Handstand Push-Up is only theoretical, but that's because they say it's only theoretical. They haven't given it the time it needs. If you decided you wanted to press your bodyweight with one arm overhead (underhead?) and expect to do it quickly, you'll be sorely disappointed.

It's trendy to hate on high reps/endurance now.

And I think that here are the premises of your long standing argument(s). The fight that strength is not a rep derivative, and that there is more to strength training than strength. And that you reject the notion that the OAHeSPU as described is theoretical, despite the fact that there is not one documented strict rep ever known to have been caught on camera (this is also true of his strict OAP, step 9 could never lead to step 10 because of the balance issue between them, or the photos do not show the correct exercise; a feet together OAP is generally considered impossible because of the balance issues, he specifically poo poos the feet apart version and even more silly doesn't use it as part of a progression to his strict one).

[MMyers]

Honestly, are you having a conversation with yourself in your head that is kinda making its way into this thread only vaguely related to what I'm typing?

You should really go back and reread this thread from the beginning.

Dear god, you are insanely worked up over my saying the rep progressions CC aren't that good and there are other ways of going about it. I feel as if I am bearing the brunt of an argument you've been having for a long time with an unknown ghost about many things that you have seen and read here and elsewhere, and that I am at best vaguely aware of this and know none of the finer points of this argument yet you seem to think I am a fully knowledgable opponent in this long standing argument.

So, now I'm literally insane because I don't agree with you? Oh, thanks, that makes perfect sense.

And no, I got worked up because you responded to my FOUR SENTENCES with an essay, I took the time to respond, and then you ignored it, and then got mad because you don't think anybody can insult you or your ideas, because you're perfect. It's not even the fact that you didn't write back, it's that I took the time to answer your obscenely long post, and then got ignored.

Now, admittedly, I probably shouldn't have brought up that you ignored my points so passive aggressively, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

But can you clarify what the stuff in bold is supposed to mean? You say you know none of the finer points of the argument and then "yet you seem to think I am a fully knowledgable opponent in this long standing argument".

.....huh?

[MMyers]

Or edit your post AGAIN

And you're bringing up the One Arm Handstand Push-Up again?

So, you obviously don't like me because we've disagreed before, so that just proves that you think everything that doesn't 100% support you is wrong because you have a giant ego. I agree with that self-assessment, the first step of recovery is admitting you have a problem.

[Waldo]

But can you clarify what the stuff in bold is supposed to mean? You say you know none of the finer points of the argument and then "yet you seem to think I am a fully knowledgable opponent in this long standing argument".

.....huh?

This is very common to message boards and it can lead to some threads/posts looking downright insane. Basically arguments about a subject are not typically contained to a single thread or single opponent. Often times the same argument will be brought and argued many times over the months/years, a veteran of these arguments entering a new fray on the subject and argue ghost points against arguments they've had in the past that have never been introduced in the current discussion. They seemingly don't realize that their opponent is less versed on the finder points of this argument that they have hashed out many times before and can become flustered when their opponent doesn't recognize read between the lines points/communication, or bite on the baited hooks that have worked in past incarnations of the argument. When a bystander reads the thread or the amateur to the argument it can be near impossible to follow because critical logic jumps are never enunciated.

You keep saying I'm avoiding answering question so and so, or changing the subject, but I am at a loss to determine exactly what it is you are saying. I keep rereading things trying to figure out WTF you are making a big deal about and am basically left confused at this point.

[MMyers]

Pretty much what I've said a million times already. I responded to your huge post, took the time to write out everything, and then you ignored it. And I've asked before, but I'll ask again: Can't you see where somebody might have a problem with spending a lot of time replying to your post, only for you to ignore it? Especially when I just originally posted to say: "Follow the program, there for a reason, blah blah blah".

And I have no problem with you replying to something I've posted, but it wasn't intended for you in the first place, it was just my opinion on what every body reading should try to do if they wanted to follow the program. But, you responded with a giant post, I responded in kind, but you didn't respond back.

It's kind of like if I sent out a text to all my friends, and you called me and left a long message in my voicemail about it, I reach out to you, but you don't call back. Can't you see in this somewhat similar situation that you would be annoyed too? And I'm not asking you as a person you're in an argument with, just person to person.

And I'll say it again, but I probably shouldn't have brought it up so passive aggressively, but I thought it was annoying how you skipped over my counter arguments, that's all... I think everybody would be.

I'll say I was wrong in being overtly hostile. We're obviously both just confused and pissed off at this point. You're not a bad person, I think a breakdown in communication is kind of what started this, you've contributed a lot to the forum, and I apologize for being a dick without any real reason to. You can say whatever you want and we can even try and have a more civilized disagreement, but I would like to apologize because I definitely did my part in escalating this bullshit. You're a cool dude, and I wouldn't want to hold a grudge against anybody, especially on here. We've obviously had disagreements before, but let's at least be cool with each other, so at least we're not dicks to each other again.

[Waldo]

Pretty much what I've said a million times already. I responded to your huge post, took the time to write out everything, and then you ignored it. And I've asked before, but I'll ask again: Can't you see where somebody might have a problem with spending a lot of time replying to your post, only for you to ignore it? Especially when I just originally posted to say: "Follow the program, there for a reason, blah blah blah".

And I have no problem with you replying to something I've posted, but it wasn't intended for you in the first place, it was just my opinion on what every body reading should try to do if they wanted to follow the program. But, you responded with a giant post, I responded in kind, but you didn't respond back.

It's kind of like if I sent out a text to all my friends, and you called me and left a long message in my voicemail about it, I reach out to you, but you don't call back. Can't you see in this somewhat similar situation that you would be annoyed too? And I'm not asking you as a person you're in an argument with, just person to person.

And I'll say it again, but I probably shouldn't have brought it up so passive aggressively, but I thought it was annoying how you skipped over my counter arguments, that's all... I think everybody would be.

I'll say I was wrong in being overtly hostile. We're obviously both just confused and pissed off at this point. You're not a bad person, I think a breakdown in communication is kind of what started this, you've contributed a lot to the forum, and I apologize for being a dick without any real reason to. You can say whatever you want and we can even try and have a more civilized disagreement, but I would like to apologize because I definitely did my part in escalating this bullshit. You're a cool dude, and I wouldn't want to hold a grudge against anybody, especially on here. We've obviously had disagreements before, but let's at least be cool with each other, so at least we're not dicks to each other again.

Its all good dude. No hard feelings. I shoulda replied to your post at first. I actually almost did, I hit the reply button, but just didn't have anything much to say. I felt my points stood up on their merits to the counterarguments and there was no need to further that line of discussion at the time.

Anyway as to my point above (whether it is the case or not), walk into a long time GB Packers forum and make a thread strongly pro or anti Brett Favre and watch the chaos ensue. It is the craziest thing you'll see. Everybody is a veteran of years of drawn out battles on the subject, at this point if you are a newcomer or outsider an argument on the subject can appear to be virtual nonsense. Just a weird message board/internet phenomenon.

[MMyers]

Alright man, I'm glad there are no hard feelings. Have a good night.

[Rhino]

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. Glad you guys worked it out.

[161803398874989]

I was just about to post "shut the f*** up" in huge letters, but then I read on. Good you guys worked it out.

And I think that here are the premises of your long standing argument(s). The fight that strength is not a rep derivative, and that there is more to strength training than strength. And that you reject the notion that the OAHeSPU as described is theoretical, despite the fact that there is not one documented strict rep ever known to have been caught on camera (this is also true of his strict OAP, step 9 could never lead to step 10 because of the balance issue between them, or the photos do not show the correct exercise; a feet together OAP is generally considered impossible because of the balance issues, he specifically poo poos the feet apart version and even more silly doesn't use it as part of a progression to his strict one).

[gugi9000]

I think he's referring to one arm head stand push ups. Or "hand stand" as Paul Wade puts it.

Maybe this counts:

[Waldo]

It is not as described in the book. Jim is using a power rack to get past the issue that Wade never mentions. By moving the leg opposite the pushing hand out a little bit, you put the bodies mass centroid on the main support/pushing spine and have your other leg to balance and resist the rotation inherent from a 2 support stance with eccentric loading in the movement. (In other words a 1 arm 1 foot pushup is easier than Wade's strict form). The ONLY place you can resist the rotation strict form is in the pushing wrist, and due to the lever arms of the system that has the potential to be at an extremely high moment in the wrist. By grabbing a bar, Jim is using a significantly more stable means of wrist support and is able to resist the rotation. Internally the rotation also has to be resisted at the shoulders, another place that Jim struggles with a little bit.

Either way, doing that progression in the book will never lead to a strict form OAP. It is impossible, it lacks the ridiculous amount of wrist conditioning necessary for his form. There needs to be a significant amount of one arm handstand work inserted to condition the wrist for the movement (or work with weights), or you have very little hope. Step 9 does not address the rotation issue either and at no point is the balance issue addressed.

But if you have trouble doing five reps of the one-arm pushup in good form, go back to Step 9, and ensure that you are can use perfect form for twenty repetitions of the lever pushup.

....get out of here with that.....

Trying to go from step 9 to 10 following the book is an exercise in futulity. If you try to keep your feet together always you have pretty much zero hope of ever doing this movement. The correct form for the hand inside the shoulder version of the exercise is feet shoulder width apart. The hand outside the shoulder, legs spread wider w/twist (the Rocky version) actually isn't all that hard to do (if you can do declines for reps you should be able to do one), though it isn't a great strength building exercise so it is relatively pointless to do other than to say you can.

Now if you wish to move on to chasing a feet together OAP from a shoulder width OAP thats awesome, and its something I will probably end up doing once I can do shoulder width OAP's, but the progression in the book will surely not get you there and you do have to realize it is a bit of an El Dorado (shoulder width OAP's will be a target of mine in the upcoming challenge, I'm not terribly far away, like I said, mapping my path currently, trying out the various ways to get there to see what works for me).

You know the other possibility is that Wade cannot and never could do a OAP or OAHePU, nor did he coach anyone that could and thus he does not know the correct form the exercises nor any technical issues that arise from trying to do them. The extreme difficulty of his form on the wrists is never once mentioned, yet he mentions how difficult it is on the elbows and shoulders. Really? Their strength requirements are a drop in the bucket compared to the wrist requirements.

[cianalas]

a feet together OAP is generally considered impossible because of the balance issues

It's not a pretty one, but his feet are together:

[Waldo]

It's not a pretty one, but his feet are together:

Yeah I've seen that. Like I explained in the above post it is not a technical impossibility, however Wade's progression will never get you there. I'm not sure that a OAHeSTPU as described by Wade is technically possible, the OAP clearly is, however its difficulty is so high it borders on impossibility.

But the way Wade puts it:

For determined trainees, two sets of fifty repetitions are an impressive but achievable medium-term goal.

Come on dude, get real.

Al is frickin crazy strong, some of the stuff that dude can do is sick. His regular OAP is a thing of beauty (the pushup battle with his brother is awesome). Yet he can barely eek out one shaky poor form rep of a strict Wade OAP. He should go back down and add more reps to lever pushups until he can do 5 good ones, LOL.

[cianalas]

Oh, I agree that Wade's methods won't get you there. I actually don't like CC all that much once you get to the higher progressions (or any of the philosophy stuff he sticks in there). I took a look at it because one of my friends was starting out on it. The leaps he requires you to take become ridiculous near the top of most of the moves. Usually once you get to progression 6 or so, you're better served by other tutorials because they give you more reasonable next steps.

[gugi9000]

Wade writes that the steps are not set in stone, they are just examples. But yeah, at some point CC1 just isn't enough.

[Waldo]

Writing about the OAP in this thread yesterday got me thinking, and I reread Jim's page on the OAP, and I thought I've give the Rocky style another chance.

Wade specifically talks this style down, legs splayed, torso twist, yada yada.

When testing if I could do a hand inside feet shoulder width apart OAP in the past, I've also tested the Rocky style for giggles and I could do them, barely, but I could go chest to floor and back up.

There is a lot of macho when it comes to pushups, you need to be perfect this way or this way or it is a crap rep. I was wrong, and Wade is wrong, for thinking the Rocky style is a crap form version. It is not. It is a fundamentally different exercise and absolutely requires the wide legs. Do you think doing dips with a strong forward lean is crap form? No. Vertical dips target triceps, dips with a strong forward lean target the chest. The Rocky version of a OAP is a chest pushup. The hand inside the shoulder version is a tricep pushup. The tricep OAP "looks" prettier and is closer to the form that drill sargent Buzzcut requires for 2 armed versions. With a chest OAP wide legs is absolutely a necessity, at least the leg opposite the pushing hand. It isn't cheating, if your hand is outside your shoulders (thus the rep emphasizing your chest), it is physically impossible to do without toppling over unless you kick out the opposite leg out. Balancing with the hand under the chest with straight legs at least seems within the sphere of human possiblity, it surely is not hand outside the shoulder. The Rocky style doesn't have as much of the cool factor, but as an exercise for building a strong chest I'm not sure there is a bodyweight exercise that puts more resistance on your chest.

[161803398874989]

Planche pushups, perhaps?

[batty1of3]

my biggest problem with convict conditioning is stepping back a bit with the early progressions i was doing the BBW circuit for about 3 months before i got CC though i was getting some sore shoulder probs

i plan on giving at least a month to the earlier steps to build the tendons and ligaments just feel like i'm not moving even doing sets of like 40 at a time step 2 in march