LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Igaduma]

3 minutes ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

It doesn't matter where you starve,

but we're not starving

we don't like the food we're getting

that's not the same thing.

 

It does not matter where you starve... true

We have it just as bad as gay people in Uganda... wrong

So wrong it's offensive to Ugandan gay people.

 

5 minutes ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

Yes, maybe I would be already dead in a country with less or no gay rights

Not you might be, you most likely would be
and the way you died would probably not be very nice

unless you never came out of the closet

 

7 minutes ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

but that could be a blessing compared to a lifetime of living in an officially accepting but actually discriminating society.

That depends on the discrimination I suppose.
If Germany is anything like the rest of "civilized" Europe, I don't think it's quite that bad.  But everyone has to decide for him/herself where the limit lies for him/her.

 

I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong.  I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement.  I am saying that sometimes you have to shift your focus away from all the things you don't have, to all the things you do have.
I can't get fired because I'm gay.

I can marry.

I can adopt children if I want to.

I can be openly gay without having to fear for my life that much more than the next guy.

That's quite something to be grateful for.

[namelesswonder]

1 hour ago, Igaduma said:

 

Up to a point I agree with you but you have to admit that you'd rather be gay in Germany than in Uganda...

Is it perfect?  No.  But it could be worse.  Much much worse.

 

With respect, this is not helpful. Marginalized people are VERY AWARE of how worse it could get, because it often does (if not for themselves, for someone they know). Would you tell the people of Flint Michigan that it could be worse? That ALL of their children could be sick or dying from lead poisoning instead of some of them? No. You would say, "I'm so sorry that you are experiencing this." You should not try to diminish or invalidate someone else's suffering. "Perspective" does not help fix anything.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-worst-things-people-do-when-trying-to-help/

 

Oh and people DO get fired for being gay and ARE afraid to openly express their sexuality because well have you looked at the news in the US? People get killed and attacked every day for this kind of thing. 

[Waldgeist]

23 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

I can't get fired because I'm gay.

Not officially at least, but unofficially hell yeah. Unless I work for the catholic church, then you can officially get fired in Germany because you are gay and that is the law.

 

24 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

I can marry.

No, I can't. A civil union is not the same thing, because it doesn't entail the same rights.

 

25 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

I can adopt children if I want to.

Gay couples cannot adopt children together in Germany and single people can't adopt regardless of their sexuality, so no I can't.

 

27 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

I can be openly gay without having to fear for my life that much more than the next guy.

There are areas and situations where two man can't hold hands or kiss without the fear of being beaten up or worse.

[Igaduma]

12 minutes ago, namelesswonder said:

have you looked at the news in the US

Have you read the part where I said "Germany"?

 

I am gay myself.  And yes, I do experience some discrimination from time to time.  And no, I don't like it when it happens.

But if you only complain about what you don't have, and spend to little time being grateful for what you have, people will see you as a whiny bitch.

And then at first the will stop paying attention to you and further down the line they will start paying attention to you but not the kind of attention you want.

 

1 hour ago, Igaduma said:

This so called open society is still full of homophobia and discrimination which fuels the hatred that caused this suffering. It also makes me very sad, that most majority people just can't or don't want to see that.

What I'm saying is that this: we have to tread carefully.  We want to point out what still needs to change from time to time without falling in the whiny bitch trap.

In western Europe, for the most part we are lucky enough to be able to do that.  Our lives are not in immediate danger.  

If you think that being called a faggot is just as bad as being dragged out into the street by your neighbours and having your throat cut...  You just are to sensitive for this world.

That does not mean I think it's ok for people to call us faggots (depending on the circumstances).  Sticks and stones...

[Igaduma]

2 minutes ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

Gay couples cannot adopt children together in Germany and single people can't adopt regardless of their sexuality, so no I can't.

I stand corrected then.  I though adoption for gay people was already allowed in Germany as well.

 

3 minutes ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

There are areas and situations where two man can't hold hands or kiss without the fear of being beaten up or worse.

Agreed, there are.  You'd probably prefer not to be a woman in those places as well.  Or possibly a redhead.  Or have the wrong taste in clothes or whatever.
Again, I'm not saying things are perfect.  Just that they could be worse.

[chri5tina]

I wanted to share this tribute that Anderson Cooper did for the victims of the massacre in Orlando.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/anderson-cooper-reads-orlando-shooting-victims-names/

 

I wish there was more coverage of this kind happening.  It made me cry, but I think it's important to mourn and honor the dead however we can.  I wish there was something more that I could do.

[Waldgeist]

46 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

I stand corrected then.  I though adoption for gay people was already allowed in Germany as well.

To be fair it is in one case (although only because of a court ruling, not a political decision), if you have children from a previous straight relationship (and you have custody), than your partner can adopt them as stepchildren. But since that is not applicable to a lot of people, it doesn't really count.

 

50 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

Agreed, there are.  You'd probably prefer not to be a woman in those places as well.  Or possibly a redhead.  Or have the wrong taste in clothes or whatever.

I don't think Nazis or Hooligans would beat up redheads or women just for passing by.

 

51 minutes ago, Igaduma said:

Again, I'm not saying things are perfect.  Just that they could be worse.

And I'm not saying they couldn't be worse. But that doesn't mean they are good either and right now I'm really fed up with people (not you obviously), who tell me to be content with what I have, even though they know nothing about what it means to be gay/trans/queer.

[Basement Cat]

Appeal to worse problems.

 

That aside, my thoughts are with all those who lost family and friends in that tragedy. If somebody needs to vent or anything, my mail box is open.

[Thrillho]

Stage 3 cancer? Chin up, buddy.  My uncle has Stage 4.  It could be worse!

[Mike_d85]

8 hours ago, Igaduma said:

what bothers me more than the shooting itself (it doesn't "touch" me more than other shootings just because they happen to be gay) is that gay men can't give blood.

 

I saw an article this morning that several hospitals have leaned on the FDA to re-evaluate their donation requirements.  The last time they re-evaluated they updated to "sexual contact between men in the past year" so maybe an update is coming on the heels of this.

[Igaduma]

3 hours ago, High Lord of the Sith said:

even though they know nothing about what it means to be gay/trans/queer

To be fair, I don't know much about being  trans.  

I imagine the reaction of the immediate environment can be a fair bit worse than the reaction to being gay.  I'm still mostly the way they've always known me, I just happen to prefer men.  Being trans...  The difference are a bit bigger and more visible.  Perhaps not bigger but certainly more visible.  Deviating more from the image people had/have of you.

Strangely, I only know a couple of trans people (that I'm aware of) and I don't know them well enough to have had conversations about it with them.

 

2 hours ago, Thrillho said:

Stage 3 cancer? Chin up, buddy.  My uncle has Stage 4.  It could be worse!

Exactly!  Make the best of it, 'cause soon it will be stage 4.  Time enough to cry when you're dead.

Probably not the reaction you wanted to elicit from me.  But truly is the way I (try to; not always successfully) approach life.

A friend of mine died of cancer at 23.  His attitude was exactly that: make the the best of today, because tomorrow might be worse.  I admire(d) that immensely about him. 
When I go through a "rough patch" sometimes I say to myself "what are you whining about? look what he went through and he went smiling, so buckle up and grow a pair Iggy!"

 

1 hour ago, Mike_d85 said:

I saw an article this morning that several hospitals have leaned on the FDA to re-evaluate their donation requirements.  The last time they re-evaluated they updated to "sexual contact between men in the past year" so maybe an update is coming on the heels of this.

Let's hope they do.  Even if it's only temporary.  It can still be used as a precedent later on then.

 

3 hours ago, Basement Cat said:

Appeal to worse problems.

Well, the appeal to worse problems one becomes an issue if you try to deny that there is a problem.  I'm not say that there isn't a problem.  I'm saying that (for most of "us", where I live) there is far more right than there is wrong.

To quote the article you linked to:

Quote

Simply comparing the severity of two problems is also not a case of this fallacy. If Bob complains about his flu, and Alice tells him "It could be worse, you could have cancer" she is not committing a fallacy; if she tells him that he has no right to complain about his flu when people are dying of cancer, she might be.

I'm not telling anyone you can't complain about your flu.  I'm saying you shouldn't complain about it as if it were cancer.

To take the example from the article.  What if you have a papercut and someone else broke his leg.  I agree that you don't hurt from his broken leg.  But if you go around thinking that just because you can't feel his leg, that your papercut is worse...  go home, slap your mother and ask her why she raised you to be such a self centered prick.

The papercut example did make me think of a (rather unrelated) passage from "The Secret History" by Donna Tartt which I have know pretty much by heart ever since I read it for the first time 20 or so years ago:

Quote

It is a terrible thing to learn as a child that one is a being, separate from all the world, that no one and no thing hurts along with ones burned tongues and skinned knees, that ones aches and pains are all ones own. Even more terrible, as we grow older, to learn that no one, no matter how beloved, can ever truly understand us.

(this is how I remember it, It might not be 100% how she wrote it)

[Fearkiller]

5 hours ago, chri5tina said:

I wanted to share this tribute that Anderson Cooper did for the victims of the massacre in Orlando.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/anderson-cooper-reads-orlando-shooting-victims-names/

 

I wish there was more coverage of this kind happening.  It made me cry, but I think it's important to mourn and honor the dead however we can.  I wish there was something more that I could do.

Though I feel worse, thank you for linking that.

 

Yes to that.

Is there?

 

Oh.. @Ravis ^-^ Hold on to that, maybe you will manage to make a difference, afterall

 

4 hours ago, Thrillho said:

Stage 3 cancer? Chin up, buddy.  My uncle has Stage 4.  It could be worse!

"Gee, thanks..

Not. helping!"

 

Quote

Simply comparing the severity of two problems is also not a case of this fallacy. If Bob complains about his flu, and Alice tells him "It could be worse, you could have cancer" she is not committing a fallacy; if she tells him that he has no right to complain about his flu when people are dying of cancer, she might be.

Hmm. Doesn't that first part still imply a lack of empathy for Bob?

"I'm not giving a shit about your flu"-sort of way?

 

 

[Thrillho]

No, see, she's trying to make him feel better by making him think about sick, possibly dying people.  I know I always feel better when I think about that. 

[TheOtherScott]

I got your backs, friends.

[namelesswonder]

With regards to "how to help"... The problem started here in the US and the solution can be from the people. Whatever we can do to educate, to end stigmas surrounding sexuality and gender, to direct others towards respectful interaction & terminology, to fight for fair laws & representation... Homophobia and possibly fear of his own repressed sexuality caused this incident, from all I can tell, and that was bred right here.

 

I'm trying to figure out what kind of activism I'm comfortable participating in. I want to get outside of my comfort zone a little, but I've never really done anything "activist" related before. I think reading up on how to talk to people on topics like sexuality and gender will be a good starting place for me, because when it comes up and I want to set someone straight (haha not like that), I fumble for the words and just end up getting pretty frustrated with them.

 

I'm closet-bi so I have been kind of keeping my reaction to this whole tragedy internal. I know it's okay for me to grieve, to be angry, to be afraid, but I feel like a usurper in a way.

[Igaduma]

11 minutes ago, namelesswonder said:

With regards to "how to help"... The problem started here in the US and the solution can be from the people. Whatever we can do to educate, to end stigmas surrounding sexuality and gender, to direct others towards respectful interaction & terminology, to fight for fair laws & representation... Homophobia and possibly fear of his own repressed sexuality caused this incident, from all I can tell, and that was bred right here.

 

I'm trying to figure out what kind of activism I'm comfortable participating in. I want to get outside of my comfort zone a little, but I've never really done anything "activist" related before. I think reading up on how to talk to people on topics like sexuality and gender will be a good starting place for me, because when it comes up and I want to set someone straight (haha not like that), I fumble for the words and just end up getting pretty frustrated with them.

 

I'm closet-bi so I have been kind of keeping my reaction to this whole tragedy internal. I know it's okay for me to grieve, to be angry, to be afraid, but I feel like a usurper in a way.

IMHO, a good way of "working for the cause" is often just to be openly bi/gay.

It's easy to dislike/disapprove of what you don't know.

It's harder when it's someone you know.  When it's 2 people you know, still harder.  5 people,...

Don't do anything, just be who you are.

 

Ofcourse, you need to be comfortable with being out.

[kylesolo]

Something I've come to realize is just what I hear people talking about - many people on facebook (friends, family) have said nothing about what happened. This is not a problem in and of itself - people obviously don't have to post anything on facebook if they don't want to, because it's just facebook - people have come up to me and given me hugs, or initiated long discussions, and it's been great. Stay silent on facebook, it's totally okay. I don't make a post about every mass shooting that happens here either.

What I've definitely been put off by, though, is all the people who say not to politicize the tragedy and then proceed to do just that by saying we need more religion in schools and more guns for civilians and more war and more discrimination against Islam. Okay, whatever. I've heard that before. And then to hear people agree with them? To have people say nothing? Everybody agrees with them, or says nothing to stop them, and I feel like I need to speak up (I've heard this both online and in person, or stories of people who have heard this in person). I've definitely called some people out on it - but I don't want to be the only one who does this. If I stay silent, I may as well be saying that I think what they're saying is okay, and that's not right. But I don't want to be the only one doing that. I wish other people would be willing to call people out for what they're doing. Queer people are often erased from their own stories and histories (Look at the AIDS crisis, for example - the most mainstream stories I can think of are Philadelphia - where the straight man is the hero; RENT - where the straight man is the hero; Dallas Buyers Club - where the straight man is the hero... it goes on). It's happening now - people have even been saying it's not a gay bar, which infuriates me.

 

Obviously it's better to live in the United States than somewhere where I could be legally murdered for being gay... but I can still die because I'm gay and the perpetrator may very well get away with a slap on the wrist. Even here, in the liberal bastion of Seattle, I know people who have been kicked out of their houses for being gay or isolated. A bomb even went off in a gay nightclub on New Years Eve - and I had been in the area hours earlier (luckily there were no deaths). People can still be pulled out of their homes by their neighbors and have their throats slit in the street, but we know it's illegal. I don't think it'll happen, but who knows? But hey, just because things are definitely worse in other parts of the world doesn't mean that I should just accept things how they are in this part of the world. I want the whole world to be better - but much like it's discussed here, I can't change the whole world all at once. But I can still make things better here.

[namelesswonder]

I suppose I am relatively safe in coming out, especially since I am married to a cis-man (makes me appear heteronormative). The comments I will get are realistically a minor inconvenience if I can just toughen my skin a little. If I can talk openly about my suicide attempt, I suppose I can learn to talk openly about my sexuality. I don't want to contribute to the silence anymore.

[namelesswonder]

Okay I did it. And got an unexpected outpouring of love and support from people that read it when I shared the post on Facebook. I even had a few people come out to me via text & private messages, which was really appreciated. Kind of a little "yay I'm not alone with my experiences!" with regards to being confused for years and being in a heteronormative relationship. Even my dad said he was proud of my courage, which meant a lot because I wasn't sure how my parents might react. Hahah and of course I had to do it online, but I hope I can work up the courage to start talking about it in person.

[Ravis]

Congrats, @namelesswonder!  Hey, saying it online still takes courage and it's a great step forward! So proud of you!!

[Igaduma]

omg, you came out?

Congrats.  This is a moment you will remember!

 

About needing courage... it gets easier.  Coming out is not something you do once.  It's something you start once and then you just do it over and over again.  With practice comes experience.  Each time it takes a little less effort.  You'll get to a point where you do it without even thinking about it.

[Wolverine]

On 6/24/2016 at 2:34 PM, Igaduma said:

Coming out is not something you do once.  It's something you start once and then you just do it over and over again.

 

And just when you think you're done... you have kids and have to start doing it all over again.

 

Congrats, @namelesswonder!

[Kage]

First of all, I love that this topic exists. I didn't realize how I was planning to quietly avoid the topics of pronouns and gender-related terminology until I saw there was an LGBT-specific thread.

 

Second of all, I had a really great moment yesterday. It was the final two days of our master's degree, so to celebrate, the program gives us two days of physical education/adventure camp in the woods-- kind of an educational reward for everything we've done over the past year and a half. Anyway, my husband came to pick me up, and the professor asked that he stay for a few hours to help us play a particular sport with which he has a lot of experience. The thing is, I was so scared to tell my classmates that he was my husband! I had no idea what to say. I mean, we wear identical rings and enough people in the program know we're gay that probably everyone knows, but it was bizarre. I honestly didn't think I had any internalized fear/shame until that moment.

 

One of the women in the program had brought her husband and young kids for the weekend. When her 4 year old asked who the new person was, my husband went over, kneeled down, shook her hand, and said, "Hi there! My name is ____, and I'm ____'s friend. It's very nice to meet you!"

 

The mom leaned over and said to her daughter, "Sweetheart, no. This is not his friend, it's his husband. And they're two of the happiest, most loving people you will ever meet. You're very lucky to know them."

 

My heart melted. I was so scared-- I had no idea what to do-- and then she just obliterated it with an outpouring of love and acceptance and-- UGH! YES!!!

 

Another gay guy in the program took me aside and recommended that I read The Velvet Rage by Alan Downs. It's about how early experiences of uncertainty and implicit invalidation lead to inauthentic or conditional validation later in life, and how gay men avoid the potential for invalidation by hiding parts of themselves while seeking socially appropriate validation through half-truths or outright lies. I really think it's something all gay men could benefit from reading. If you're outraged at the idea that there's internalized shame lingering in you-- maybe it would be even more beneficial.

 

Yay for acceptance! Boo for unrecognized internalized fear/shame. But I'm learning!

[Platzhalter]

First... congrats, @namelesswonder

 

Second... welcome to this thread and place in general, Kage. You're definitely far from alone with you're initial tendency to avoid certain things which makes me happy you found this thread.

And it's definitely true that uncertainity and maybe even lack of self-acceptance can do a lot of harm. Accepting who you are and what you need is important.

[Raidho]

Hello people! 

I feel sorta bad, as I don't really have any reason for posting other than to say hi. However, I was excited to see this topic on the forums. I've been looking to be more engaged around here and, honestly, being the gay guy in a room/world full of usually testosterone laden straight guys can be intimidating (I'm speaking towards experiences in life. Everyone in NF has been lovely). It's nice to have a chance to connect with other LGBTQ people that are either in the fitness world or trying to be. I'm guessing that someone else has felt that same sort of feeling. 

 

So....uh.... yeah, hello!