Announcing your goals can be bad

[67alecto]

The mind boggles at the power you grant someone that allows them to prevent you from reaching your goals when they know what they are.

Staggering.

[BeckyBuckeye]

The mind boggles at the power you grant someone that allows them to prevent you from reaching your goals when they know what they are.

Staggering.

I know that in the end it's my fault for not following through, but the fear of failure keeps a lot of people from a lot of things. Perhaps thinking of it as power would make it different.

[67alecto]

Perhaps thinking of it as power would make it different.

It may just do that.

You see a lot of people who fail to weight, and their biggest complaint is that they feel they are being sabotaged by others (whether they stated the goal or kept it to themselves). As if their friends, family, and co-workers were holding them down and pouring the food down their mouth. You have to take responsibility and be accountable to yourself.

In that situation, Tallahassee said it best.

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[BeckyBuckeye]

You see a lot of people who fail to weight, and their biggest complaint is that they feel they are being sabotaged by others (whether they stated the goal or kept it to themselves). As if their friends, family, and co-workers were holding them down and pouring the food down their mouth. You have to take responsibility and be accountable to yourself.

I don't personally blame others for sabotage, I just feel obligated to be perfect and end up sabotaging myself when I don't meet my own expectations. I think it comes from my natural competitiveness and unwillingness to admit defeat. Sounds weird, but it's almost like when I fail on purpose, it's not as bad as failing on accident. When other people are watching it's even worse because then I would have to admit to them that I failed because I couldn't do it. At least that's been my experience. I'm working on it, like I'm learning to play sports that I suck at, losing, and trying to have fun anyway, but it's definitely a process.

Back to the original topic, others feel that they've already accomplished something by stating their goals and so don't feel that they need to try as hard in actually accomplishing them. The whole "admitting you have a problem is the first step" is true, but it can't be your only step and I think a lot of people get lulled into post-first-step complacency.

[Artinum]

Spot on with that last comment, Athena. I've read about experiments on people's willpower - those who say they are strong willed are more likely to fail, because those people test themselves. A lot. Weak willed people do all they can to avoid being tempted in the first place. You can't lose the fight if you aren't in the tournament.

[67alecto]

But in the past, for example, when I've asked my husband to buy me some fresh figs as my diet treat for the day, and he comes home with figs, *and* a block of my favourite expensive chocolate, *and* some little packs of my favourite amaretto tiramisu, well.... that's hard. Can I still diet? Yes. But then he looks sad that his offerings to "make me happy" aren't appreciated. Plus, they're my weaknesses. Expensive and delicious fattening luxuries, that I love a lot. (We're doing great at the moment, and he doesn't do that any more, BTW. He might if I quit my diet, though.)

This is the single-most common excuse for failing to lose weight if you visit ANY weight loss forum. People "want" to eat healthy, but their spouse/partner/coworkers/family keeps buying/offering/tempting food that they can't resist. I'm sorry, but that is 100% on you. You either need to say "no", or you need to have a conversation with them that doesn't end until they understand how you feel like they are undermining you, intentionally or otherwise.

Willpower is strongest when not tested too often, I think!

Let me rephrase what you just said: willpower is strongest when I don't have to use it.

That is like saying I can quit smoking if I'm in a locked room with no access to cigarrettes. Or, I could lose weight if I was stranded in the desert.

Willpower in the absence of choice isn't willpower at all.

[blindasutsutsu]

And I'll restate that I 100% don't believe that it is necessary. All that matters for a goal is that you are accountable to yourself. If announcing it adds a level of accountability for you that pushes you to succeed, then go for it.

I just take issue that people would make an excuse that they failed in their goals because they announced it.

I agree 100% with this. There is nothing that says you have to be vocal about your goals to be accountable to them. To me the Challenges are made as a way to track your progress and have some support from others when you have a crap day. To say, "well I told everyone I was aiming for this and now I am not going to get there I might as well give up" just means you weren't 100% committed (to me at least) to the goal in the first place.

Goals are a part of life style change and making changes isn't always easy. The one correlation I can really see to being vocal about a goal is that for some it may give them the thought of okay I told everyone I was doing this now it will just happen. (I know that may sound stupid but I know people that have that sort of mentality) Goals don't achieve themselves you have to work at them regardless of who you tell there is no easy road. Doing a challenge works for some doesn't for others. But to say..."I didn't meet my goal because I told people what I was going for" is just a cop out.

[Eurydice]

But to say..."I didn't meet my goal because I told people what I was going for" is just a cop out.

I lurk on a weight-loss forum because I cannot resist train wrecks, and while I really think I have heard just about every excuse imaginable for being unable to lose weight, I've never actually heard anyone say this, ever. And believe me, I've heard some doozies. You wouldn't believe the number of husbands and children who will ACTUALLY DIE if the cabinets are not kept crammed full of Ho-Hos at all times.

I'm going to have to track down the original research. I have a hunch that a lot of things I find bewildering about this thread can be traced back to people not understanding how conclusions like this are drawn. I can tell you with at least 95% certainty that this one was not drawn by walking up to people and saying "Why did you fail at your weight loss goal?" and writing it down when they said "Oh, I totally failed at it because I told everyone what I was trying to do." People in general have crap for insight about why they fail at things, and if you ask them directly, you will usually not get a productive answer. You get around that by not actually asking them.

[blindasutsutsu]

I lurk on a weight-loss forum because I cannot resist train wrecks, and while I really think I have heard just about every excuse imaginable for being unable to lose weight, I've never actually heard anyone say this, ever. And believe me, I've heard some doozies. You wouldn't believe the number of husbands and children who will ACTUALLY DIE if the cabinets are not kept crammed full of Ho-Hos at all times.

I'm going to have to track down the original research. I have a hunch that a lot of things I find bewildering about this thread can be traced back to people not understanding how conclusions like this are drawn. I can tell you with at least 95% certainty that this one was not drawn by walking up to people and saying "Why did you fail at your weight loss goal?" and writing it down when they said "Oh, I totally failed at it because I told everyone what I was trying to do." People in general have crap for insight about why they fail at things, and if you ask them directly, you will usually not get a productive answer. You get around that by not actually asking them.

I don't know that I have heard anyone say that directly but I was more addressing the general topic of discussion. I guess another way of putting it is (and i have heard this) is someone saying "I cheated/failed x amount of times at (insert random goal) and disappointed such and such person and now I feel bad about my progress and don't have the motivation to keep going" I think the core concept of being vocal is good, but for some it turns from doing it for yourself to doing it for those you told. (if that makes sense??) Which to me means that initially your goals were unrealistic or not actually your goals but what you thought people wanted to here. Again its a lifestyle change...if you aren't willing to change your lifestyle you wont succeed. But blaming others as in the case of "oh but my kids spouse needs to have this in the house" is one way of putting personal goals on those around you and then blaming failure on them.

I wasn't trying to sound mean or anything with what i said I just have heard the "I am going to do this" and then the "well i couldn't because of this" reasoning so many times. I guess I just don't think being vocal about your goals has any sort of negative connection to achieving them unless the goal setter allows it to do so.

While I am sure none of that made sense I will stop my rambling now

[Eurydice]

I wasn't trying to sound mean or anything with what i said I just have heard the "I am going to do this" and then the "well i couldn't because of this" reasoning so many times. I guess I just don't think being vocal about your goals has any sort of negative connection to achieving them unless the goal setter allows it to do so.

No, I'm not saying you were being down on people or anything. What I'm saying is that I think people are discussing this under the assumption that the original findings were due to people actually walking around saying to themselves, consciously, "I failed at this goal because I was too vocal about it." Because I know how research like this is generally done, to my mind that sounds sort of like: you want to know if eating twenty muffins will slow down people's sprinting rate. So you take a group of sprinters, time them, feed half of them twenty muffins, then time their sprints again to see if the sugar and gluten overload slowed them down. Then, when it turns out that it did, someone picks up your results and posts on a forum saying "Eating muffins slows down your sprinting," and everyone starts going "Oh, that's just an excuse. It's silly that people would use that as an excuse for sprinting slowly. Just get off your butt and move faster, muffins have nothing to do with it."

I mean, that's kind of a flawed simile, but there it is. I haven't had time to track down the article, so I could be off base, but I doubt that research was about the stories people tell themselves as to why they fail at goals. It's about putting twenty people in a room, giving them a goal, telling half of them to publicize it and half of them to keep quiet, and watching to see which group fails at a higher rate. If you asked those people afterward why they failed, they would probably have a hundred reasons, and none of them would be "Because I told people about it."

As I said, though, backup of this position will have to wait for me to hunt down the original article. But I wasn't trying to pick on you. I agree that that would be a really lame excuse to use. I just also think it's a really unlikely one, and thinking of it as "just an excuse" is an unwarranted brush-off of something that could be important to a lot of people without their even knowing about it. Much like gluten sensitivity, in fact.

[shiggles]

I have the link to the original article somewhere. Hold on a bit and I will post it.

The original article was not about weight loss.

I think this topic is interesting because when people fail at goals, especially fitness goals the announcement is not something they thing about that could have contributed to their failure. It's commonly thought (can I use the term 'conventional wisdom' here?) that announcing your goals within a community be it online or in person amongst family etc helps you with your goals and achieving them. It's supposed to give you accountability and encouragement along the way.

But what happens when you fail? Announcing your goals is not an excuse but it's a possible reason or contributing factor to failing at a goal. That doesn't mean you can go and have a whinge along the lines of "OH, I'm still fat because I told everyone I wasn't going to be fat". Amongst all the variables between people and better health you are never going to be able to separate out the effect of that announcement.

BUT if you don't reach yours goals then it's probably worth considering trying some new goals and not announcing them. Then see if it helps - who knows it may actually work. It's certainly a technique to try despite that common view I stated earlier.

And I'm just going to put in my personal opinion about willpower. I don't really believe in willpower a whole lot to be honest. I mean, a lot of say they fail or say others failure due to a lack of willpower. But, when you look around there is plenty of resources with information about how to become more healthy. But there aren't many resources around how to increase your willpower. Those who are successful are those who do things like plan properly and use other techniques to avoid temptation or putting themselves in the position of being under more pressure to be unhealthy. As someone alluded to previously those who have the best willpower are those who avoid using it.

Willpower is not eating that bowl of ice cream sitting in front of you. (Harder)

Good technique and planning is not having ice cream in the house, not walking down that aisle in the grocery store or sticking to a shopping list that does not contain ice-cream. (Easier)

[shiggles]

I have the link to the original article somewhere. Hold on a bit and I will post it. EDIT: Here you go

The original article was not about weight loss or fitness, but it's been put into this context during this thread not surprisingly due to the theme of this community.

I think this topic is interesting because when people fail at goals, especially fitness goals the announcement is not something they thing about that could have contributed to their failure. It's commonly thought (can I use the term 'conventional wisdom' here?) that announcing your goals within a community be it online or in person amongst family etc helps you with your goals and achieving them. It's supposed to give you accountability and encouragement along the way.

But what happens when you fail? Announcing your goals is not an excuse but it's a possible reason or contributing factor to failing at a goal. That doesn't mean you can go and have a whinge along the lines of "OH, I'm still fat because I told everyone I wasn't going to be fat". Amongst all the variables between people and better health you are never going to be able to separate out the effect of that announcement.

BUT if you don't reach yours goals then it's probably worth considering trying some new goals and not announcing them. Then see if it helps - who knows it may actually work. But as I said before if you presume like most people that the announcement will be beneficial, you won't even think of it as being a possible factor. Sort of like someone failing at weight loss and then following conventional wisdom by trying to cut down their fat intake without considering other macronutrients.

And I'm just going to put in my personal opinion about willpower. I don't really believe in willpower a whole lot to be honest. I mean, a lot of say they fail or say others failure due to a lack of willpower. But, when you look around there is plenty of resources with information about how to become more healthy. But there aren't many resources around how to increase your willpower. Those who are successful are those who do things like plan properly and use other techniques to avoid temptation or putting themselves in the position of being under more pressure to be unhealthy. As someone alluded to previously those who have the best willpower are those who avoid using it.

Willpower is not eating that bowl of ice cream sitting in front of you. (Harder)

Good technique and planning is not having ice cream in the house, not walking down that aisle in the grocery store or sticking to a shopping list that does not contain ice-cream. (Easier)

[blindasutsutsu]

I have the link to the original article somewhere. Hold on a bit and I will post it.

The original article was not about weight loss.

I think this topic is interesting because when people fail at goals, especially fitness goals the announcement is not something they thing about that could have contributed to their failure. It's commonly thought (can I use the term 'conventional wisdom' here?) that announcing your goals within a community be it online or in person amongst family etc helps you with your goals and achieving them. It's supposed to give you accountability and encouragement along the way.

SO i really like your statement that planning and good technique makes not giving into temptation easier. i.e. if its not here i can't have it, but not going down that ice cream isle is a form of will power in my eyes. Anywho the part I bolded above I both agree and disagree here. I think it is commonly thought that announcing your goals will in general help you keep them and i agree with this in most cases. For most people it will help to have someone there to root you on and say wow look how far you have come that sort of thing. I do not however think that the announcement should give you accountability, however.

The only one that should be held accountable or hold you accountable for your goals is you. It's your life style change not mine. I have someone very close to me that if I could I would control what they eat how they work out etc. but I can't because I can't be accountable for them they have to decide that their lifestyle needs to change in order to improve who they are. Having someone in your corner is all about having that backing or those encouraging words, not about having someone say you shouldn't eat that ice cream. It's human nature to want what someone tells you, you can't have. I would advise against anyone trying to hold a friend/family member etc. accountable to goal they have set, because again it has to be about them or else it will never stick.

[jennageah]

Just on testing yourself, this gets me thinking a lot when I food shop. Most paleo advice says things like 'isn't it wonderful not to go down all those aisles of processed food' or 'practise walking around the outer edges of the supermarket', but I kind of get a kick out of strolling down unneccesary aisles sometimes. It's partially necessary, because there are a variety of supermarkets I shop at, depending on the situation or what I need, but sometimes having to stroll past a whole lot of sugary crap to get my block of 75+% dark choc (for treats) is cool because I can just walk right past them and think 'no'. I read somewhere that maybe willpower is more like a muscle, and if you challenge it perhaps it gets stronger. Although sometimes I look forlornly at a mars bar or some other miracle of confectionery, I am allowed to have a few small 'cheats' per week and unless all I dream about is a mars bar for a week, it's really not worth it. I try to tell myself that my body needs food that is better than that.

Anyway, on goal sharing again, if you don't honestly communicate what your needs/goals are to the people around you, they will have zero chance of thinking twice before putting your favourite demons in front of you, that's what I figure.

[azsf]

You see a lot of people who fail to weight, and their biggest complaint is that they feel they are being sabotaged by others

That is like saying I can quit smoking if I'm in a locked room with no access to cigarrettes.

You talk like all this is happening in a vacuum, as if people don't have lives and friends or find themselves in different situations from time to time. "being sabotaged by others" is not always some nebulous claim that people are making up to excuse their behaviour, it's a feeling. "I feel i failed these goals because other people didn't help me keep on track" is a genuine feeling, and sometimes spending a night out with your friends is more rewarding then staying home and cooking beans. quality of life and all that.

i think the key to this is to remember that people are going to fail from time to time, and sometimes they'll own it, other times they wont. as i said earlier, telling someone the way they feel "is just an excuse" will NOT help them succeed in the future. talking through the problem, coming to an understanding, and finding a solution to the issue WILL. To use your cigarrette issue

"i feel i failed to quit smoking because all my friends smoke" - ie their social setting has a negative influence on their wants. lets look at some solutions to this problem: do they have other friends? can they arrange to meet in non-smoking environments? can they find something else (i hear lollipops are a delicious alternative for oral fixation) to stick in their mouth while everyone else lights up? shut up that's just an excuse, quit smoking already gosh.

which of the above do you feel HELPS the person, as opposed to HURTING them?

It's about putting twenty people in a room, giving them a goal, telling half of them to publicize it and half of them to keep quiet, and watching to see which group fails at a higher rate.

Bingo.

[Siferiax]

I haven't read this whole thread, so sorry for that. But this really resonated with me:

While I know this is because they care and are trying to show an interest, when the work is becoming hard and I am plugging away but maybe at 80% or even 70% of my optimal performance, I quickly find myself resenting it all and just wanting to scrap everything. So yeh, maybe I only tracked four days this week, but I'm already feeling shitty about it and don't need people saying "Should you really be eating that?"

(and then I wrote a whole rant I just deleted 8D let me try to stay on topic)

I feel there's both an advantage to announcing goals, as well as a disadvantage.

I think there's a few factors:

- you as a person

- the goals you set

- the people you tell

Telling the "wrong" people won't get you the support you want/need and that will make you fail faster.

Not telling your goals to anyone, makes it easier to give up on them, as nobody's going to ask you about them.

For me, I just need to set tiny goals and make them public (posting online). This will be my new strategy I'll be testing.

I'm in doubt whether or not to participate in the next challenge... this one I'm failing though. I may need to set fewer goals or different types of goals, or maybe just smaller goals.

We'll see.

[Siferiax]

Anyway, on goal sharing again, if you don't honestly communicate what your needs/goals are to the people around you, they will have zero chance of thinking twice before putting your favourite demons in front of you, that's what I figure.

That's an excellent argument for sharing your goals in advance, that I hadn't considered.

I suppose conversely, if you *know* that people are going to drag you down or be negative (sadly some people are like that), then that may be a reason to not share your goals.

Or they just actively sabotage you when you need support to keep going.

I failed the Whole30 because I gave in to my mom and my aunt's persuasive "rational" arguments in favor of breaking my Whole30.

I was having doubts/trouble. So to use a metaphor, I was standing on the cliff in doubt and they pushed me off.

Social pressure is a large factor, which is either good or bad. You need to be super power strong to resist all of it day in and day out.

Willpower is limited, and especially when it's low it's easy to fall for social pressure.

[Elastigirl]

Or they just actively sabotage you when you need support to keep going.

I failed the Whole30 because I gave in to my mom and my aunt's persuasive "rational" arguments in favor of breaking my Whole30.

I was having doubts/trouble. So to use a metaphor, I was standing on the cliff in doubt and they pushed me off.

Social pressure is a large factor, which is either good or bad. You need to be super power strong to resist all of it day in and day out.

Willpower is limited, and especially when it's low it's easy to fall for social pressure.

I think of willpower as a muscle to strengthen. When I first stated Paleo, I would cave in to friends when they offered treats. But more and more often I was able to say no. I didn't keep any junk around the house. I do the shopping/cooking so that was easy to control. I still don't have sweet stuff around the house, because I don't think my will power is that strong (nor do I think we need sweet stuff in the house) I do have some tortilla chips for my son, which no longer tempt me.

ButI did find it easier once my husband at least got somewhat on board. It was hard to say no to treats when he always said yes. I fought with the demon of "it's not fair, everyone else eats it why not me" but then I realized how yuck they made me feel and that I didn't want to be like everyone else. But it sure makes it easier to not give in when we go out to eat and hubby orders the salad instead of fries. Casue I have to admit sitting there seeing my son and hubby eats fries without eating any is torture.

[67alecto]

I tried to ignore this post, but I just can't.

I failed the Whole30 because I gave in to my mom and my aunt's persuasive "rational" arguments in favor of breaking my Whole30.

I was having doubts/trouble. So to use a metaphor, I was standing on the cliff in doubt and they pushed me off.

So, you failed because they pushed you off the cliff? It sounds more like you were standing near a cliff and they presented an argument that you should jump and you did.

That's on you. Your next line about having doubts/trouble confirms that you weren't fully behind the idea, so you quit on it.

[Raincloak]

Willpower is a kind of muscle, it gets stronger with use, but too many uses in a row can overtax it. Studies support this (if anyone really cares, I'll link some up).

While I take responsibility for all my own health choices (and I'm not sorry for most of them), I also feel it's fair to point out that social pressure can make almost anyone do almost anything, up to and including outright suicide. This is well documented by science, and history also bears it out. One reason quitting a drug or alcohol addiction is so difficult is because addicts have to ditch all their old friends! They must stop hanging around everyone who uses drugs, because if they associate with those people, even a dear friend or relative, they're going to relapse. But no one can stop eating, and unlike drugs, there is not much social stigma attached to junk food (and it's perfectly legal for all ages -- there is no immediate consequence to consuming it), so food addictions are a bit more tricky.

personally, I never said other people made me miss this or that goal. I just said my own behavior was affected by telling other people about it. You can get up on the soapbox and scold if you want, but I was simply being honest about what makes me tick.

[Eurydice]

You know, at some point the argument that all decisions are your decisions, that there is no such thing as mitigating circumstance, and that the wishes and arguments of others - no matter how much you love them and how important their opinions and approval are to you - should count for absolutely nothing becomes a little absurd. If someone's holding a gun to your head and tells you to do something or they'll shoot, and you do it, then yes, certainly you made the choice to do what they said instead of dying; but in the context of explaining why people do what they do, saying "It was your decision, suck it up and own it" does not present a particularly accurate or fair picture.

I mean, it would be nice if we were all islands, entire unto ourselves, and no one's opinion could ever sway us to do anything we don't want to do unless we were weak-willed and let them, but to believe that that's how human beings actually operate - ANY human beings, not human beings in general with the inevitable super-special exception that is Me - is ridiculous. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never heard of Stanley Milgram. Insisting that the opinions of others should never affect what people do is, in the end, about as productive as insisting that someone should buy you an actual Ewok for Christmas.

[67alecto]

I mean, it would be nice if we were all islands, entire unto ourselves, and no one's opinion could ever sway us to do anything we don't want to do unless we were weak-willed and let them, but to believe that that's how human beings actually operate - ANY human beings, not human beings in general with the inevitable super-special exception that is Me - is ridiculous. Anyone who tells you otherwise has never heard of Stanley Milgram. Insisting that the opinions of others should never affect what people do is, in the end, about as productive as insisting that someone should buy you an actual Ewok for Christmas.

No one is an island, yes, but that doesn't absolve you from responsibility for your choices. It's easier for the person to say their mom pushed them off a cliff (giving up Whole30) than to say "I quit doing it because I didn't like having to limit my foods".

Stating that it was was (insert outside influence) that made you fail makes you feel better about quitting.

[Artinum]

Our social peers are a powerful force. But like all powerful forces, it can work with you or against you. Ultimately you have another choice - if your peers are running you down and sabotaging your efforts, stop hanging around with them. Better to have no friends than negative ones that cause you unhappiness.

And people have the wrong idea about willpower. Deliberately seeking out bad things so you can consciously avoid them is stupid - eventually even the strongest will is going to slip. Willpower is only effective short-term - be smart with it, and use that short term to remove all temptations for the long haul. I won't go into this now - Steve's blogs have done so at least half a dozen times by now. Basically, your own mind is against you. Take away any power it can hold over you and success is much easier.

Announcing my goals doesn't seem to make any difference for me. I'm finding Fitocracy is working well, though - living up to social obligations is a big "meh" to antisocial me, but going a day without logging some form of exercise feels deeply wrong!

[Starstuff]

Stating that it was was (insert outside influence) that made you fail makes you feel better about quitting.

It can, sure, but it also helps you (or helps me, anyway) figure out how to succeed next time. It's basically an engineering problem: when something fails, you identify the points of failure and then fix them for the next go round. If you don't identify the points of failure, chances are you're going to hit them again. For me, ignoring outside influences and trying to frame everything as some internal battle of will is one of the surest ways to guarantee continued failure.

I'm also not really sure why feeling better about having failed at something is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe some people find feeling bad about failures to be motivating, but I find it incredibly distracting and demotivating. I'd much rather spend my focus and energy on doing better in the future than on feeling bad about past failures.

[67alecto]

It can, sure, but it also helps you (or helps me, anyway) figure out how to succeed next time. It's basically an engineering problem: when something fails, you identify the points of failure and then fix them for the next go round. If you don't identify the points of failure, chances are you're going to hit them again. For me, ignoring outside influences and trying to frame everything as some internal battle of will is one of the surest ways to guarantee continued failure.

I'm also not really sure why feeling better about having failed at something is supposed to be a bad thing. Maybe some people find feeling bad about failures to be motivating, but I find it incredibly distracting and demotivating. I'd much rather spend my focus and energy on doing better in the future than on feeling bad about past failures.

The point is that people use it as an excuse when they quit. They don't stop following their chosen diet, they were sabotaged by friends, family, and co-workers. They didn't quit couch to 5k because they hated sweating, they did it because their friend asked them to go to a movie and then they "felt weird" about repeating a week.

Announce your goals, or keep them to yourself...whatever works. But saying that you failed in your goals because you announced them isn't anything other than a lazy excuse.