so you're fat? it's all your fault.

[Waldo]

Greed and lack of willpower are by no means a new development in humanity. That has been relatively constant, but coupled with the luxuries of our modern society what you get is fatness. This proves your point somewhat, but I would say the root of the obesity problem is our choice to fatten up and stay that way rather than our circumstances making it easy to get fat.

 

I personally think we are going to see obesity decline in a big way in the coming years.

 

We (humans) have not yet fully adapted as a society to life online (which there was couple decade cable TV-video games lead into).  Basically easy access to unlimitied entertainment while sitting on your butt.  The vast majority of jobs done while sitting on your butt.  But lifestyles are evolving to tackle the weaknesses as we become more and more connected.

 

There is an extremely rapid evolution of the weight loss process underway.  The wisdom of crowds is beginning to strongly blunt most of the worst BS out there.  Those that fall victim to the worst of the BS are in general not of the crowd, loners still trapped on the couch in front of their TV.

 

I've seen a lot of successful people around me in everyday life, especially within the 20something-30something band, in general those most connected to the crowd.  Those older and their kids are far less likely to be of the crowd.  I don't think it will take long until this success starts hitting the long term trends that are tracked.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Coupled with what Waldo said, modern nutrition science has only really started to take off as a true science that many pursue in the last 20 years or so as more and more funding is funneled toward it due to the obesity crisis. The rate of research increases every year which will lead to more and more truths being revealed. The general public then lags about 15 years behind what the research shows.

Also, speaking of evolution, the interesting thing about humans is that I believe that we no longer really evolve biologically. We select our mates not on who is the strongest or fittest to survive the wild, but who we find most attractive to our personal tastes from the pool of mates that our social systems make available to us, which is based more around socioeconomics than anything else.

Biological defects are also no longer removed from the gene pool by that person not surviving. We take care of those with those defects and they may go on to have children and keep passing those genes along. All gene mutations, good or bad, are kept in the pool instead of just the good mutations which drove our evolution in the past. I truly believe our biological evolution for survival is over until such a time as gene therapy and selection of embryos or sex cells (sperm and ovum) is widely available and accepted, like in movies such as Gattaca. At that point we will start to intelligently guide our biological evolution.

I say this because until that happens, we're never going to biologically evolve to be able to tolerate the common western diet well. So what has to happen is that we need to start tailoring our diets on the societal levels through food and diet research to fit what we already evolved into. Like I said, that research is getting stronger and stronger and I agree with Waldo that in the next few decades we'll see real leaps in what society feeds to us rather than having to become as educated on proper nutrition ourselves. Until that time though it is our personal responsibilities to do the high level of self educating needed in order to avoid the issues that led us all to this website.

[Karma Stu]

You have to want it more than you want to continue feeling comfortable, and until you do, you're not going to change a damn thing - no matter how much you lament not being or doing what you "want".

 

This = amazing! So much so I am stealing and quoting from this day forth.

[Steve]

Thanks for the great discussion guys, this is awesome.  Giving me all sorts of thoughts for an article on personal responsibility.  

 

-Steve

[obax]

I also think that caring about what others think of us (or what they might think of us) is a fundamental part of what keeps civilised society going. Take away shame and the risk of shame, and the world will look very different.  

 

I agree. A world without shame would be a far better place. Shame is not the same as having a sense of right or wrong. Using shame to get someone to adhere to a particular ideal is incredibly effective, but also incredibly destructive.

[Georges]

Would you ever say those words (So you're fat?  It's all your fault.) to a four-year-old?

 

Think about why not.  Part of it is that a four-year-old has a limited amount of personal responsibility.  But part of it is that it would be hurtful and unkind.  Only one of those things changes as the fatty grows up.  So, yes, my weight problem is my own responsibility now, but if someone is hurtful and unkind to me in addressing it, I am not going to be terribly receptive to their message.

 

I think this mindset has the most value when you look at this from a standpoint of personal responsibility (instead of blame or fault).  In that, the article is sort of preaching to the choir here - personal responsibility might not be written down in the rules of the rebellion, but it echos in every word.

[Siferiax]

So I think I'll just leave this here:

Siebold says you have to be "99 per cent compliant, you can't go half way."

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/June+Thompson+Losing+weight+step+process/7814964/story.html#ixzz2IEzoDGvh

- Realize that 99 per cent compliance is failure. You wouldn't cheat on your spouse in a committed relationship, so don't cheat on something as important as your resolutions.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/June+Thompson+Losing+weight+step+process/7814964/story.html#ixzz2IEzte3l1

[Evicious]

I caught that as well, Kibcy.

 

But hey, it's the message that counts, right? After all, the most popular religions in the world follow contradicting texts and (with the exception of the usual extremists you get in everything) manage to get their main points across fairly well without much quibble over their "2+2=5s".

[jehan60188]

Would you ever say those words (So you're fat?  It's all your fault.) to a four-year-old?

 

Think about why not.  Part of it is that a four-year-old has a limited amount of personal responsibility.  But part of it is that it would be hurtful and unkind.  Only one of those things changes as the fatty grows up.  So, yes, my weight problem is my own responsibility now, but if someone is hurtful and unkind to me in addressing it, I am not going to be terribly receptive to their message.

 

I think this mindset has the most value when you look at this from a standpoint of personal responsibility (instead of blame or fault).  In that, the article is sort of preaching to the choir here - personal responsibility might not be written down in the rules of the rebellion, but it echos in every word.

 

 

this is the same mindset responsible for "participation trophies".

As if just showing up is an accomplishment.  There's only one olympic gold medalist per competition, and that makes people who don't win work harder for the next competition.  If you get a trophy just for showing up, you feel good about yourself (basically instant gratification), and don't care about working hard for a first place trophy.

 

yah, I wouldn't talk to a 4 year old, or even a 4th grader that way, but there comes a point when you need to take the kid gloves off.

 

Saying "you're fat and it's your fault" isn't hurtful or unkind.  saying "you're entire self worth is based on your body" is unkind.  saying "you're a waste of space" is hurtful.  but saying that someone is unhealthy, and that they are responsible for their health is respectful, if anything!  Or is it somehow nicer to let fat people think they have no control over their situation?

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Honestly, the title is not the issue. The quote posted is what's full of assholerey. If you're out to help people, I'm guessing 50%+ walk away or quit with the attitude there. Yes, it's your personal responsibility to get fit and make the changes needed if that's what you want, but coming off and yelling at someone like that quote does is demoralizing and comes off like calling someone a slob. It might work with some, but most people won't respond to that with a positive change.

As for the participation trophy, taking 99% as success is different than taking 10% or just walking into a gym as success. Very few things in life are 100%/0%.

[joeyb]

I have a theory about people that most people absolutely hate: You never do anything you don't want to do. It's the inverse of this concept that's important: it means that everything you do do is something that you want to do. People argue this with every fiber of their being - "I don't want to pay taxes, but I still pay them!" "I don't want to go to work every morning, or work the hours that I do, but I go in every day all the same." "I don't want to keep smoking cigarettes, but I have to if I'm ever going to get a break at work." These arguments have a second half to them, however, and sometimes it takes a second for people to understand the idea of what "want" really means. No, you don't "want" to A) pay taxes, B ) go to work, C) keep smoking - but you really don't want to A) get audited and pay waaay more money than the original tax fee, B ) have no income and deal with all the troubles no money brings, C) give up your hourly breaks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_principle_(psychology)

 

What you are suggesting is basically this. I subscribe to that theory as well. Basically, people don't want to be fat, but they don't want to put in the work to lose weight either. It's only when the want of being skinny surpasses the want of being sedentary and eating unhealthy foods that they will be able to be successful. That's what happened to me. My desire to be healthy was greater than my fear of the work that needed to be put in. Eventually, I grew to like the workouts, but when I started my only motivation was to be healthy and that was enough to get me through the rough first few weeks.

[Zorch]

this is the same mindset responsible for "participation trophies".

As if just showing up is an accomplishment.  There's only one olympic gold medalist per competition, and that makes people who don't win work harder for the next competition.  If you get a trophy just for showing up, you feel good about yourself (basically instant gratification), and don't care about working hard for a first place trophy.

 

yah, I wouldn't talk to a 4 year old, or even a 4th grader that way, but there comes a point when you need to take the kid gloves off.

 

Saying "you're fat and it's your fault" isn't hurtful or unkind.  saying "you're entire self worth is based on your body" is unkind.  saying "you're a waste of space" is hurtful.  but saying that someone is unhealthy, and that they are responsible for their health is respectful, if anything!  Or is it somehow nicer to let fat people think they have no control over their situation?

 

I think on some level it's a little naive to think that there is one right or wrong way to handle the psychological side of this.  My mind doesn't necessarily work the same way as others', and as a result the most effective tactics for working with me aren't necessarily the same as those that might work well for someone else.

 

When it comes to fitness psychology, it's all about figuring out how to motivate the individual.  Some individuals may respond to a harsh taskmaster - others may need more of a cheerleader.  Still others - like myself, work best with someone who can simply impart knowledge - giving me the tools/weapons that I can choose to wield as I see fit.  Some people need to be pushed, others need to be cheered on, and others simply need to be given a map, and turned loose to find their destination.

[Starstuff]

Saying "you're fat and it's your fault" isn't hurtful or unkind.  saying "you're entire self worth is based on your body" is unkind.  saying "you're a waste of space" is hurtful.  but saying that someone is unhealthy, and that they are responsible for their health is respectful, if anything!  Or is it somehow nicer to let fat people think they have no control over their situation?

 

It is hurtful. I have, in fact, been hurt by that statement. It hurt when I was in elementary school and other kids said it. It hurt a couple months ago when I was feeling so damned proud of having lost so much fat and made so much progress in my running and lifting, and some random woman who'd I'd never seen before walked up to me to tell me that, "you know, you wouldn't be so fat if you didn't eat so much." Where I'm from, it's roundly considered rude and patronizing, if not downright invasive, to offer unsolicited advice on another person's medical condition. It's hard to swallow that it somehow becomes respectful if that medical condition happens to be fat.

 

Why do you think this is something you need to say to people? Do you somehow think that fat people haven't been told (over and over, often in really demeaning ways) that they're fat and it's their fault? Do you think somehow their doctors have just neglected to mention it every time they've gone in for a check-up (or a sprain, or strep throat, or a flu shot...)? Because I can tell you, the percentage of fat people who have never heard this is really effin' small. Hell, I'd be willing to bet the majority of fat people have heard it this week.

 

Further, there are a number of scientific studies suggesting that hearing these sorts of comments constantly are detrimental to fat people (a sampling of studies: 1 2 3), and I haven't been able to find a single study showing that they're helpful. Whether or not you think telling fat people they're fat and at fault should be helpful, it doesn't seem to be, and whether or not you think it should be hurtful, it definitely can be. Given those things, it seems a much better choice to leave a person's fatness between them and their medical professional unless our opinions are invited. Kind of like we do with every other medical condition ever.

[Evicious]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_principle_(psychology)

 

What you are suggesting is basically this. I subscribe to that theory as well. Basically, people don't want to be fat, but they don't want to put in the work to lose weight either. It's only when the want of being skinny surpasses the want of being sedentary and eating unhealthy foods that they will be able to be successful. That's what happened to me. My desire to be healthy was greater than my fear of the work that needed to be put in. Eventually, I grew to like the workouts, but when I started my only motivation was to be healthy and that was enough to get me through the rough first few weeks.

 

I'm going to need to read up on my Freudian theories now! Never thought he'd be one I'd agree with - but then again, I've always stereotyped him into the "ALL THE THINGS ARE SEX" category and figured that was good enough. Looks as though I may have been mistaken!

 

There is a constant balancing act being performed in our society, now that we no longer have to spend the majority of our time fighting for survival; we have come to a place in our evolution where the strongest and the fastest are no longer the only individuals who have their thumbs in the genetic pie. Intelligence has been determined as a keystone to the continued advancement of the species, and that has subsequently pushed physical fitness quite a bit further down on the priority list. So it truly isn't any real wonder that the more advanced the population, the softer the majority of it's members is.

 

That being said, however, that softness has indeed gotten a bit out of hand - and I'm not just talking about girth. There comes a point when the intelligent cease to use their intelligence and instead begin to expect that everything will simply fall into place (you can pick your own favorite generation to lay the blame on). It is at that point of societally ingrained entitlement that smart people become very stupid, and very stupid ideas begin to take the place of intelligent ones. Ideas such as safety labels on hair dryers that implore you not to insert the machine into any orifice, while running or otherwise; ideas such as encouraging rote memorization of text books through the nearly exclusive use of multiple-choice testing; and yes, ideas such participation trophies, where everyone is a winner just for being themselves.

 

Now, some truly intelligent people will realize to varying degrees at some point(s) in their lives that if they actually want something, the odds are quite high that the only way they are going to get it is to do something about it. The extremely intelligent will take their epiphany and apply it to every aspect of their life, weilding it like a secret weapon and feeling very satisfied indeed with everything in life they are accomplishing. The rest of us will decide that our Eureka! moment was obviously a great thing, but a one-time thing. We will go back to lollygagging through life, wondering why McDonald's makes such delicious food but our refridgerators don't, and if they'll ever invent an exercise that will burn a day's worth of calories while you sleep? We will also be the ones standing with our arms crossed and tears in our eyes, stubbornly refusing to do anything unless someone asks us nicely.

 

That being said, however, Starstuff has a point:

 

It is hurtful. I have, in fact, been hurt by that statement. It hurt when I was in elementary school and other kids said it. It hurt a couple months ago when I was feeling so damned proud of having lost so much fat and made so much progress in my running and lifting, and some random woman who'd I'd never seen before walked up to me to tell me that, "you know, you wouldn't be so fat if you didn't eat so much." Where I'm from, it's roundly considered rude and patronizing, if not downright invasive, to offer unsolicited advice on another person's medical condition. It's hard to swallow that it somehow becomes respectful if that medical condition happens to be fat.

 

It is no stranger's business what percentage body fat any random individual may consist of at any point in time. So the next time someone feels the unexplainable need to comment on weight, my recommended response is to spit at their feet, comment on the vileness of their face - nay, their very existence - and continue doing whatever it was you were engaged in prior to the interruption. It's probably just the spitting thing, but I find people tend to move on very quickly when they receive that kind of a reaction.

[Amazon Grimm]

Okay, I am fat, and yes, i do take responsibility, but not fault.

 

The fact is that rationally it isn't entirely my fault, I have been influenced subconsciously by many factors.

 

I have to consciously ignore those factors which shaped my choices in order to take responsibility.

This is helpful to me.  Someone else telling me would not.

[jehan60188]

Okay, I am fat, and yes, i do take responsibility, but not fault.

 

The fact is that rationally it isn't entirely my fault, I have been influenced subconsciously by many factors.

 

I have to consciously ignore those factors which shaped my choices in order to take responsibility.

This is helpful to me.  Someone else telling me would not.

this!

i think the author (and therefore most of the people in this topic) don't discern between fault and responsibility. but you hit the nail on the head- "ok, other people have trained me to be fat, but now, I'm in control of my own life!"

[Flex Luthor]

I agree with what the author said completely.

 

The NF community doesn't really line up with this but so many people make way too many excuses. Excuses for why they are overweight and excuses why they can't change. I for one am sick of it and don't want to hear it. Forget about blame, forget about fault, forget about the past. If you recognize the fact that you are overweight and want to change and don't. You choose to be overweight. 

 

As far as the 99% thing, I'd be happy with that. But you bet your ass I wouldn't be satisfied and try to do better.

[Evicious]

Forget about blame, forget about fault, forget about the past. If you recognize the fact that you are overweight and want to change and don't. You choose to be overweight.

 

QFT. This is the whole point, really - that no matter how you got to where you are now, no matter who is to blame, the fact is that you have a problem and only you can solve it. It's akin to the concept of "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem."

[Rostov]

There's an important difference between "excuses" and "explanations".

 

Identifying and understanding explanations does not neccesarily mean using those explanations as excuses - though no doubt some (not those posting here) may do so.

 

Not looking for explanations and insight and understanding beyond "everything is my choice and my fault" can lead to fighting a battle armed only with willpower and determination.  Important qualities that are vital to succcess, certainly, but much less effective without a coherent strategy, intelligence, understanding of yourself and your environment and a well thought out plan for sustainable long term lifestyle changes.

[jimmie65]

I agree with what the author said completely.

 

The NF community doesn't really line up with this but so many people make way too many excuses. Excuses for why they are overweight and excuses why they can't change. I for one am sick of it and don't want to hear it. Forget about blame, forget about fault, forget about the past. If you recognize the fact that you are overweight and want to change and don't. You choose to be overweight. 

 

As far as the 99% thing, I'd be happy with that. But you bet your ass I wouldn't be satisfied and try to do better.

 

 

QFT. This is the whole point, really - that no matter how you got to where you are now, no matter who is to blame, the fact is that you have a problem and only you can solve it. It's akin to the concept of "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem."

 

Exactly, The author may be harsh, but this is what it comes down.

 

It's a choice. However that choice is influenced by other people, by society, by whatever, it is still a choice. 

Your health doesn't give a f*** who made the choice.

Men my age (and younger) are dying of heart attacks; they are not getting a free pass because society pressures them to make money rather than take care of themselves. That obese twenty-year old with diabetes doesn't get to skip the dialysis because it's his mommy's fault he's fat. 

 

We can argue all day about who's to blame. For us, it doesn't matter. We recognize where we are and know what we have to do. We have to make a choice one way or the other.

 

Concerned about the societal factors involved? Then change those as well, to the best of your ability. Turn off the damn TV, don't take your kids to McDonald's, lobby for changes in laws. But you only have control over one thing and one thing only - what choice will you make today? 

[Evicious]

There's an important difference between "excuses" and "explanations".

 

Identifying and understanding explanations does not neccesarily mean using those explanations as excuses - though no doubt some (not those posting here) may do so.

 

Not looking for explanations and insight and understanding beyond "everything is my choice and my fault" can lead to fighting a battle armed only with willpower and determination.  Important qualities that are vital to succcess, certainly, but much less effective without a coherent strategy, intelligence, understanding of yourself and your environment and a well thought out plan for sustainable long term lifestyle changes.

 

Also QFT. But I think the crux of the article boils down to the fact that the majority of people will never move beyond the denial or acceptance of their situation. Instead, they will forever be waiting for someone who "understands how to motivate them" to hold their hands and guide them sweetly down Fitness Lane.

 

NO! STOP THAT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!

 

There is no Buff Knight coming to save you from the hedonist wiles of your warm bed: there is no Magic Potion of Motivation that will suddenly make the blood, sweat and tears of working out taste like pumpkin juice and add +1 to the stat of your choosing. You are Fiona, and Shrek is never leaving his cozy swamp. How many more fictional examples of reality are needed before we finally get it?

 

So some people aren't going to respond well to this particular method of presentation - hate to say it, but that's not the author's problem. His message is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than what your doctor, your personal trainer, your nutritionist, your mother, your spouse, your kid or - yes, even a stranger - is saying to you. The only difference is that he's shoving the facts down your throat rather than asking you nicely to consider the evidence. If that doesn't work for you, then don't listen to him. I promise, there are a helluva a lot of other people out there saying the same thing as him, and at least one of them is going to appeal to your way of thinking. Listen to that person and ignore this guy.

[Vian]

People are usually more motivated by coming to the internal realization that something in their life needs to change than they are having someone they don't know tell them (meanly).

 

I was 90-110 pounds overweight (depending on what system of determination you use). It was a slow creeping weight gain since highschool. In highschool, I wasn't in sports, hated gym class, but I still did things outside of class that kept me active. I was still a bit overweight, but I took horseback riding lessons, and played DDR for hours. After highschool, I got married to a guy (who said all the right things to appeal to my depression and fear of being alone) who refused to eat anything green, and just wanted to sit infront of a computer all day and play videogames. I got sucked into that lifestyle of eating low-quality cheap crap and inactivity because I just didn't think I had an alternative. Money was tight, I was working 40 hours a week, and I was depressed because my then-husband was emotionally abusive, on top of my already low self-esteem. Depression saps your willpower like nothing else will.

 

It got to a point where I was in the HR ladies office every day for about an hour at work bawling about what my husband had said/done to make me feel like garbage that morning or the night before. She finally directed me to call a counselor through a program we had at work. At the first appointment, the councelor gave me a packet of information about various types of abuse. When I left, I went and sat in a grocery store parking lot and read the packet in my car while I cried, coming to the realization for the first time that I was in an abusive relationship. I made the decision right then that I would leave him. The divorce was finalized 6 months later.

 

After that, it took 3 years of counseling, talking, thinking, PRAYING, and working things out in my own head before I actually got my head on straight enough to look at myself objectively - without judgement. I was fat. Being fat did not mean I was worthless, less of a human being, or less capable of happiness, but it did make me uncomfortable in my own body, and unable to do the active things I wished I could do. I knew why I was fat. I even knew how to fix it - in theory. Putting it into practice was a whole other story. So far I've lost 50 pounds.

 

So yes, I have the power over what I put in my mouth and how active I am, but it took realizing that for myself after alot of trials to make it really sink in and make me act on that realization. If I hadn't learned the things I had from marriage, divorce, and the subsequent years of self-evaluation, for myself, I would not be the person I am today, and I would not have the courage to change the things about myself that I am not happy about. And while I still have 40-60 pounds to lose, for possibly the first time ever, I am happy, and proud of myself. It doesn't work when someone else tells you what you need to change and what you need to do. It has to come from within.

[Raikas]

this is the same mindset responsible for "participation trophies".

As if just showing up is an accomplishment.  There's only one olympic gold medalist per competition, and that makes people who don't win work harder for the next competition.  If you get a trophy just for showing up, you feel good about yourself (basically instant gratification), and don't care about working hard for a first place trophy.

 

Isn't "just showing up" an accomplishment?  I seriously don't get hatred for participation trophies - a kid who gets ones knows the difference between that and the kid who got the MVP trophy - but it's still a symbol that they finished something, and that's more than the people who quit (or didn't sign up in the first place) can say.

 

Do you hate marathon finisher medals too?  Those people aren't confusing themselves for elite runners, but they're still doing more than the people sitting on their sofa (or running the shorter distances), no?

[jehan60188]

Isn't "just showing up" an accomplishment?  I seriously don't get hatred for participation trophies - a kid who gets ones knows the difference between that and the kid who got the MVP trophy - but it's still a symbol that they finished something, and that's more than the people who quit (or didn't sign up in the first place) can say.

 

Do you hate marathon finisher medals too?  Those people aren't confusing themselves for elite runners, but they're still doing more than the people sitting on their sofa (or running the shorter distances), no?

I never claimed to hate them; also, don't place me on the slippery slope of not being able to discern marathoners from an elementary school mile.

You failed to address the point that I was making- constantly being nice to children, and valuing their self esteem above all else (e.g. giving everyone a trophy for running a mile, or "social promotion") is not a healthy way to raise responsible children.

Kids like that grow up thinking "they can do anything if they put their mind to it" when the cold hard truth is that some people aren't meant to be president/test pilot/doctors.

If they are very lucky, when they're 16, or 18, or maybe 25, they'll realize that in the real world, you don't get a medal for trying.

But that entire diatribe is a segue in to my real point (Which you also failed to address)

there comes a point when you need to take the kid gloves off.

Saying "you're fat and it's your fault" isn't hurtful or unkind. saying "you're entire self worth is based on your body" is unkind. saying "you're a waste of space" is hurtful. but saying that someone is unhealthy, and that they are responsible for their health is respectful, if anything! Or is it somehow nicer to let fat people think they have no control over their situation?

After that, it took 3 years of counseling, talking, thinking, PRAYING, and working things out in my own head before I actually got my head on straight enough to look at myself objectively - without judgement. I was fat. Being fat did not mean I was worthless, less of a human being, or less capable of happiness, but it did make me uncomfortable in my own body, and unable to do the active things I wished I could do. I knew why I was fat. I even knew how to fix it - in theory. Putting it into practice was a whole other story. So far I've lost 50 pounds.

well put

being at a healthy weight is important, but not being there yet doesn't make you a bad person (nobody would say that kids with cancer are worthless!)

you didn't post about every work out, and food decision you made. that's not the accomplishment worth mentioning. the accomplishment worth mentioning is that you made those decisions several hundreds of times in a row, and lost 50 pounds (which is definitely worth mentioning!)

[sumdawgtwigg]

Pretty harsh but I did enjoy it.