Diet Fatigue Study & Support

[Elastigirl]

4 hours ago, The Most Loathed said:

But regardless of how long you go, you're a success because you continue to do the work. 

Thanks. I need to keep reminding myself of that. Not being a pass/fail condition is a good point.

[Harriet]

On 4/5/2024 at 12:37 AM, Elastigirl said:

I am now eating about 350 calories a week then I was in mid January. I have maintained my weight ( totally shocked me) I lost about 1 .5 inches around my belly and about 2 inches around my waist. 

 

Awesome!

 

On 4/5/2024 at 12:37 AM, Elastigirl said:

 

 The reason I started  with adding calories is that (supposedly) it will make it easier once I cut. Instead of my daily calorie goal being 1,500, I can do 1,800, or even a bit more since I will be more active now that the weather is warmer.  I plan to do this for 6 weeks, and then go back to maintenance-reverse diet for 6 weeks or so.

 

 So far, I am happy with the reverse diet. Looking at myself in the mirror, I do think I have gained muscle. And I can lift more than I did. It does seem to work to have sped up my metabolism. I know some people say this theory is bonkers. But, the plan of just eating less and less wasn't working for me, so I thought I 'd give it a try. The whole time, I've been pretty consistent with resistant training. Working out is fairly easy for me to be consistent in, it's the food part I struggle with.

 

In overfeeding studies, some twin pairs put on a lot of fat while others put on hardly any. If I remember correctly, almost all the difference is due to NEAT, not substantial changes in resting metabolism. Overfeeding is also anabolic, promoting growth of muscle if you're weight training. 

 

On 4/5/2024 at 12:37 AM, Elastigirl said:

I'm taking  next week off, then I will start my cutting phase. I was actually feeling a little anxious about it. I stopped and tried to think through what was causing that, and what I have control over and can manage.

 

1) Worried about feeling hunger

Obviously, I will be more hungry then when I was eating as much as I want. That doesn't bother me. It's that feeling that I am just constantly thinking about food that I don't want.

  I can do a few things for that:

A calorie range : This give me a bit of leeway, I can eat more if I am hungry

Know the first week is tough, but it gets easier

Cut a little less, and lose less weight, or maybe add in some steps to offset

 

2) Fear of failure

When I first lost weight, it seemed fairly easy. And I felt all the endorphins when the scale was going down. But, when I was struggling, the opposite happened. I'd read fitness tips about how it was because you weren't consistent enough,  or not being strict enough in your tracking. So, I would double down on that, and then burn out super quick, and feel like a failure.

  To help;

Remind myself how much stronger I am

Remind myself how much more mobile, and graceful I am

Keep my plan the same for at least two weeks. If I'm not seeing a change, just keep the same course for at least two weeks before I change anything

Remember this is a long term plan, it may happen slowly, but that's okay

 

3) Burnout

I am planning to  do the cut for 6 weeks, but if after 4 weeks, I'm burnt out, I can stop.

Do about the same level of tracking as I do now. When I eat at someone's house, I guestimate.That's fine. I do weigh my food most of the time, but sometimes I'm in a hurry and it doesn't happen. I know what serving sizes look like.

 

That's all my rambling. If you read all this , thanks, and I hope it may help.

 

I love the fact that you're reflecting ahead of time to forstall any problems. I definitely know the fear of hunger--it sent me on several years of trying to lose weight by various "healthy" eating approaches. Anything except cutting calories. But I'm not super hungry now on my diet. Or at least, I feel some light hunger that actually doesn't feel bad, and I'm practicing letting that stretch out a little. But if I get nasty hunger, I eat as soon as possible. I have lots of very filling foods: oats made with water; baked beans; chicken breast with vegetables and a little butter; shirataki noodles, home made jelly with berries and stevia. By the end of the day I usually have to eat some dark chocolate to get up to a reasonable number. It definitely got easier after the first couple of weeks. I hope it will be manageable for you, too.

The other thing that's useful is knowing it's only for three months, now less than two months left. Want cake? Well the diet is not forever, so I can have some later. Little bit hungry some nights? It's not for long. 

 

The last thing that's helping is fairly bland foods and eating the same thing all the time so it's habitual and not delicious enough that I'm focused on what I can have next, but just palatable enough that I'm happy to eat it when hungry. 

 

[Harriet]

I should update. I'm about 5-6 weeks into tracking my food on macrofactor every day. First couple of weeks I just ate about 2000, and I was just making sure I had some meal blueprints that would work. Next couple of weeks I cut only about 250 but was a bit hungry and felt the gap. Last couple of weeks I've cut another 250 and am only lightly, manageably hungry. The kind of hunger that makes food appreciated, not that makes a person insane. Food type/quality is playing a huge role in how hungry I am. And habit is starting to pull its weight and make things easier, but overall, it just hasn't been that difficult. I've lost about 2.5kg in 5-6 weeks (most in the last three weeks), which is half of what I wanted to lose during this 3 month cut. I have 7-8 weeks left until the end of May. Should easily get down to 65kg by then. If I assume water weight fluctuations of roughly 1.5kg, I could even go under target to 63.5kg to ensure I can then maintain at 65kg for three months after the water weight bounces back. 65 is heavier than I want to be, but resting there at maintenance for a few months is an important part of the plan. Ghrelin, leptin, cortisol and sex hormones will normalise, and my subjective feelings of fatigue and hunger will decline. I will have more energy for workouts, and be able to make faster progress on my lifts. I will eat some nourishing honey, more butter, and avocados, maybe a chocolate cake. Any psychological effects of dieting like anxiety, resistance, reluctance, worry, obsession, should dissipate and I will then be ready to make the next push to 60kg in autumn (don't want to diet in winter. winter is for cozy comfort foods). I'll see how I feel and look there, and then I'll know if 55kg is viable. Used to be 50kg, but with no muscle. Want to be as light as possible without losing muscle, hopefully this will optimise my energy and endurance. Imagine if I could just... take off a 15kg backpack and be less tired every day. I want that even more than I want to look willowy. 

Home made jelly is amazing. 30g beef gelatine, stirred into 1 cup cold water (that's 250ml) in a small saucepan. Heat slowly on stove for 5 minutes while stirring. Shake in some stevia (careful; it's powerful. Only a tiny amount is needed--less than a quarter teaspoon?). When it's hot, pour over 100g of blue- or mixed berries so they burst. Stir, then cool with another half cup of water. Fridge for a couple of hours. Eat as two small snacks. Very filling. Incomplete protein, but allegedly useful for skin, hair. 

[Elastigirl]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:52 AM, Harriet said:

I should update. I'm about 5-6 weeks into tracking my food on macrofactor every day. First couple of weeks I just ate about 2000, and I was just making sure I had some meal blueprints that would work. Next couple of weeks I cut only about 250 but was a bit hungry and felt the gap. Last couple of weeks I've cut another 250 and am only lightly, manageably hungry. The kind of hunger that makes food appreciated, not that makes a person insane. Food type/quality is playing a huge role in how hungry I am. And habit is starting to pull its weight and make things easier, but overall, it just hasn't been that difficult. I've lost about 2.5kg in 5-6 weeks (most in the last three weeks), which is half of what I wanted to lose during this 3 month cut. I have 7-8 weeks left until the end of May. Should easily get down to 65kg by then. If I assume water weight fluctuations of roughly 1.5kg, I could even go under target to 63.5kg to ensure I can then maintain at 65kg for three months after the water weight bounces back. 65 is heavier than I want to be, but resting there at maintenance for a few months is an important part of the plan. Ghrelin, leptin, cortisol and sex hormones will normalise, and my subjective feelings of fatigue and hunger will decline. I will have more energy for workouts, and be able to make faster progress on my lifts. I will eat some nourishing honey, more butter, and avocados, maybe a chocolate cake. Any psychological effects of dieting like anxiety, resistance, reluctance, worry, obsession, should dissipate and I will then be ready to make the next push to 60kg in autumn (don't want to diet in winter. winter is for cozy comfort foods). I'll see how I feel and look there, and then I'll know if 55kg is viable. Used to be 50kg, but with no muscle. Want to be as light as possible without losing muscle, hopefully this will optimise my energy and endurance. Imagine if I could just... take off a 15kg backpack and be less tired every day. I want that even more than I want to look willowy. 

Home made jelly is amazing. 30g beef gelatine, stirred into 1 cup cold water (that's 250ml) in a small saucepan. Heat slowly on stove for 5 minutes while stirring. Shake in some stevia (careful; it's powerful. Only a tiny amount is needed--less than a quarter teaspoon?). When it's hot, pour over 100g of blue- or mixed berries so they burst. Stir, then cool with another half cup of water. Fridge for a couple of hours. Eat as two small snacks. Very filling. Incomplete protein, but allegedly useful for skin, hair. 

Somehow missed your update. This is a great plan, and  I am glad it is working for you.

[Elastigirl]

This is copy and paste from my challenge

I am skimming through a diet book that I read before  "You Can't Screw This Up" by Adam Bornstein. I find it super helpful. It's very pragmatic. He has a whole list of  menu items that you can from restaurants that are good, filling, but not super high in calories.  One of the ideas he  spoke about was from James Clear (habit guru) When you are struggling with a goal a question to ask yourself is "How can I make this easy?" I  did that when , at the beginning of the week, I was worried I would fail at my diet goal. I realized that I was worried I would go over my calorie goal. So, I decided to cut my calorie goal by an amount that I thought I could do. The author, Bornstein, also talks about how it is good to step outside your comfort zone, but you don't have to leap. You can keep one foot in your comfort zone, and one foot out. When  we stretch too far in dieting, is when we tend to get burnt out. And you don't have to stay there. You can slowly up it. Applying this to my calorie goal, I can up the deficit slowly. Which makes sense. I feel like sometimes it takes a while to get in the groove.

 

And adding, because  after I read Harriet's post, I remembered this:
One thing he suggests is a shorter time frame for diet. And then staying at maintenance for a bit and letting your body adjust to it's new set point.  I thought this was interesting since a few of us were going to try that method

[Jarric]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:52 PM, Harriet said:

I should update. I'm about 5-6 weeks into tracking my food on macrofactor every day. First couple of weeks I just ate about 2000, and I was just making sure I had some meal blueprints that would work. Next couple of weeks I cut only about 250 but was a bit hungry and felt the gap. Last couple of weeks I've cut another 250 and am only lightly, manageably hungry. The kind of hunger that makes food appreciated, not that makes a person insane. Food type/quality is playing a huge role in how hungry I am. And habit is starting to pull its weight and make things easier, but overall, it just hasn't been that difficult. I've lost about 2.5kg in 5-6 weeks (most in the last three weeks), which is half of what I wanted to lose during this 3 month cut. I have 7-8 weeks left until the end of May. Should easily get down to 65kg by then. If I assume water weight fluctuations of roughly 1.5kg, I could even go under target to 63.5kg to ensure I can then maintain at 65kg for three months after the water weight bounces back. 65 is heavier than I want to be, but resting there at maintenance for a few months is an important part of the plan. Ghrelin, leptin, cortisol and sex hormones will normalise, and my subjective feelings of fatigue and hunger will decline. I will have more energy for workouts, and be able to make faster progress on my lifts. I will eat some nourishing honey, more butter, and avocados, maybe a chocolate cake. Any psychological effects of dieting like anxiety, resistance, reluctance, worry, obsession, should dissipate and I will then be ready to make the next push to 60kg in autumn (don't want to diet in winter. winter is for cozy comfort foods). I'll see how I feel and look there, and then I'll know if 55kg is viable. Used to be 50kg, but with no muscle. Want to be as light as possible without losing muscle, hopefully this will optimise my energy and endurance. Imagine if I could just... take off a 15kg backpack and be less tired every day. I want that even more than I want to look willowy. 

 

 

Late reply, but yes to your backpack analogy. It's amazing how much losing a little weight makes a difference you don't think about. My ability at climbing, pullups, muscle ups, pistol squats, all sorts of movements has improved radically in the last couple of months. I know it's not just the weight loss, but I feel like the weight loss is a major factor in all of that.

 

I'm still a stone heavier than I was at my adult lightest (14lbs / 6.5kg), but to be honest I don't think I'll ever get back there. Like you I had no muscle mass at that stage, so I'd have to be at a seriously low body fat now to get back there (to the point where it's lower than is efficient).

 

On 4/19/2024 at 4:11 AM, Elastigirl said:

The author, Bornstein, also talks about how it is good to step outside your comfort zone, but you don't have to leap.

 

I like this, I might just take it on to apply to a few other areas of my life too.

[Elastigirl]

5 hours ago, Jarric said:

I like this, I might just take it on to apply to a few other areas of my life too.

I thought it was good life advice too!

[Harriet]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:11 AM, Elastigirl said:

This is copy and paste from my challenge

I am skimming through a diet book that I read before  "You Can't Screw This Up" by Adam Bornstein. I find it super helpful. It's very pragmatic. He has a whole list of  menu items that you can from restaurants that are good, filling, but not super high in calories.  One of the ideas he  spoke about was from James Clear (habit guru) When you are struggling with a goal a question to ask yourself is "How can I make this easy?" I  did that when , at the beginning of the week, I was worried I would fail at my diet goal. I realized that I was worried I would go over my calorie goal. So, I decided to cut my calorie goal by an amount that I thought I could do. The author, Bornstein, also talks about how it is good to step outside your comfort zone, but you don't have to leap. You can keep one foot in your comfort zone, and one foot out. When  we stretch too far in dieting, is when we tend to get burnt out. And you don't have to stay there. You can slowly up it. Applying this to my calorie goal, I can up the deficit slowly. Which makes sense. I feel like sometimes it takes a while to get in the groove.

 

And adding, because  after I read Harriet's post, I remembered this:
One thing he suggests is a shorter time frame for diet. And then staying at maintenance for a bit and letting your body adjust to it's new set point.  I thought this was interesting since a few of us were going to try that method

 

Great ideas, especially when we know that we can try things and even if they don't work we'll just circle back and try something else. It feels more relaxed if we know we can't fail unless we give up for the last time. Restaurants are hard for me. I really, really, really don't like picking healthy or low calorie options. I just want what I want and I feel very stressed if I don't choose it. Luckily we don't go to restaurants so often, so I decided to just absorb the hit to my calories when we do go, and create the deficit through my at-home food choices instead.

 

On 4/20/2024 at 6:56 PM, Jarric said:

Late reply, but yes to your backpack analogy. It's amazing how much losing a little weight makes a difference you don't think about. My ability at climbing, pullups, muscle ups, pistol squats, all sorts of movements has improved radically in the last couple of months. I know it's not just the weight loss, but I feel like the weight loss is a major factor in all of that.

 

That's brilliant, good for you! Looking forward to similar improvements.

 

On 4/20/2024 at 6:56 PM, Jarric said:

I'm still a stone heavier than I was at my adult lightest (14lbs / 6.5kg), but to be honest I don't think I'll ever get back there. Like you I had no muscle mass at that stage, so I'd have to be at a seriously low body fat now to get back there (to the point where it's lower than is efficient).

 

Yeah, no, sounds like you're in a good place now. No need to get super ripped. 

 

 

Update: counting calories on holiday was not viable as we had no scale but mostly I was filled with "I don't want to". I decided to eat what I wanted, but tried to wait for hunger before eating, and then eat smaller portions, mindfully, and wait for some time if I thought my wants were cravings rather than hunger. I pretty much maintained weight, with a small upward blip of like 0.5kg to 66.5kg, and am ready to continue dieting for the rest of May. Hopefully still on track to hit my goal of 65kg, but I probably won't be able to hit the lower goal of 63.5kg which would give me room to be at 65kg *after* the initial rebound water weight from increasing food for maintenance. 

[Elastigirl]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:59 AM, Harriet said:

Great ideas, especially when we know that we can try things and even if they don't work we'll just circle back and try something else. It feels more relaxed if we know we can't fail unless we give up for the last time. Restaurants are hard for me. I really, really, really don't like picking healthy or low calorie options. I just want what I want and I feel very stressed if I don't choose it. Luckily we don't go to restaurants so often, so I decided to just absorb the hit to my calories when we do go, and create the deficit through my at-home food choices instead.

 

I'm trying to navigate eating out. Hubby and I go out once a week, and then occasionally I go out with friends.  With hubby and my date night, I've been fine with the lower calorie option, because I know that we will go out when I'm not in a cut, and then I don't have to  choose the lower calorie option. With friends it's a bit harder, because that's more of a treat.  The place I went to with my friends last month, most of the entrees were over 1,000 calories( even the salad) so I choose from the low calorie options. It was tacos and they were actually really good, so I was happy.  Last week , hubby and I went out for his birthday meal to a hamburger place.I had a salmon filet  and then when the fries came, I took over half of them , and sat them on a napkin far away from my plate, leaving me with about an actual serving size of fries.  I could have chosen a salad instead, but really wanted the fries. Doing it that way, I didn't feel deprived. Of course, I did want all the fries, but I found that I could be satisfied with what I had.

[Harriet]

16 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

I'm trying to navigate eating out. Hubby and I go out once a week, and then occasionally I go out with friends.  With hubby and my date night, I've been fine with the lower calorie option, because I know that we will go out when I'm not in a cut, and then I don't have to  choose the lower calorie option. With friends it's a bit harder, because that's more of a treat.  The place I went to with my friends last month, most of the entrees were over 1,000 calories( even the salad) so I choose from the low calorie options. It was tacos and they were actually really good, so I was happy.  Last week , hubby and I went out for his birthday meal to a hamburger place.I had a salmon filet  and then when the fries came, I took over half of them , and sat them on a napkin far away from my plate, leaving me with about an actual serving size of fries.  I could have chosen a salad instead, but really wanted the fries. Doing it that way, I didn't feel deprived. Of course, I did want all the fries, but I found that I could be satisfied with what I had.

 

Nicely navigated. Half the fries sounds enough to be satisfying. There are usually too many fries anyway. I eat and eat and feel stuffed but can't stop because there are still some left. 

[Elastigirl]

22 minutes ago, Harriet said:

Nicely navigated. Half the fries sounds enough to be satisfying. There are usually too many fries anyway. I eat and eat and feel stuffed but can't stop because there are still some left. 

Yep! That's what I tend to do too. And then feel guilty.

[Jarric]

18 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

Doing it that way, I didn't feel deprived. Of course, I did want all the fries, but I found that I could be satisfied with what I had.

 

I'm increasingly finding that more food is not more satisfying - having a really nice, small chocolate bar is great, and having 4 of them isn't any better because most of the impact comes from the initial taste and I stop tasting it after a few mouthfuls. I feel like the same might be true of fries.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

 

Nicely navigated. Half the fries sounds enough to be satisfying. There are usually too many fries anyway. I eat and eat and feel stuffed but can't stop because there are still some left. 

 

1 hour ago, Elastigirl said:

Yep! That's what I tend to do too. And then feel guilty.

 

Anyone else told they always had to leave a clean plate as a kid? ✋

[Elastigirl]

1 hour ago, Jarric said:

Anyone else told they always had to leave a clean plate as a kid? ✋

Thankfully, no.  My desire to eat all the things on the plate is simply because I just love the taste of it so much. Especially if it's sweet, or fat and salty (fries and chips!) 

[Sea-to-sky]

2 hours ago, Jarric said:

Anyone else told they always had to leave a clean plate as a kid? ✋

Yup. Thankfully its something ive unlearned to a certain extent. 
being presented with way too many chips or other food when out is tough. Especially if its something i cant take home in a doggy bag (like chips). 

[Harriet]

21 hours ago, Jarric said:

Anyone else told they always had to leave a clean plate as a kid? ✋

 

It's less my parents telling me to eat the chips and more the chips telling me to eat them." Hey, hey Harriet. Hey Harriet. Harriet. Harriet. Hey. Hey Harriet." and so on.

[Elastigirl]

My reverse diet update:

After the reverse diet I started a cut . I'm in week 4 now. I've lose weight ,and my clothes fit better.  It's sometimes hard (I'd rather keep eating because food is yummy) but doable. I haven't been super hungry, and have been able to manage the cravings. My goal was to make it at least 4 weeks, and possibly 6. I think I feel like going for the 6th week. If I feel like I'm starting to cheat, or just not care anymore, I'll stop, Sunday, Mother's Day, is a day off so that break will help 

[Harriet]

On 5/10/2024 at 3:58 AM, Elastigirl said:

My reverse diet update:

After the reverse diet I started a cut . I'm in week 4 now. I've lose weight ,and my clothes fit better.  It's sometimes hard (I'd rather keep eating because food is yummy) but doable. I haven't been super hungry, and have been able to manage the cravings. My goal was to make it at least 4 weeks, and possibly 6. I think I feel like going for the 6th week. If I feel like I'm starting to cheat, or just not care anymore, I'll stop, Sunday, Mother's Day, is a day off so that break will help 

 

Hey, that's awesome. Doable is the best. Where are you at now? 

[Elastigirl]

23 minutes ago, Harriet said:

 

Hey, that's awesome. Doable is the best. Where are you at now? 

This week I started a slow ramp up out of my deficit. I'm at a 400 calorie a day deficit. I wanted to go one week longer at the 500 calorie deficit, but I could tell I was getting burned out. I wanted to stop while I still had the  will power to do the slow ramp up.

edit to add:

I lost about 3 lbs and an inch around my belly, so I'm pretty happy . Nothing huge and dramatic, but I do fit better in my clothes. I'm not sure how long I will stay in maintenance before I try another cut. Some things about summer make a cut easier, some things harder. We have no big summer vacation plans, so it might be easier to do a cut then in the summer

[Harriet]

19 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

I lost about 3 lbs and an inch around my belly, so I'm pretty happy . Nothing huge and dramatic, but I do fit better in my clothes. 

 

Nice. If we do this sustainably once or twice a year until we get where we want, then 3lb is fine, right? 

 

I lost 4kg instead of my desired 5, and a few cm from my waist and hips. Had to buy new jeans. Was never too hungry. Will do another cut in Autumn, or next year if I don't feel great. 

[Elastigirl]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:17 AM, Harriet said:

 

Nice. If we do this sustainably once or twice a year until we get where we want, then 3lb is fine, right? 

 

I lost 4kg instead of my desired 5, and a few cm from my waist and hips. Had to buy new jeans. Was never too hungry. Will do another cut in Autumn, or next year if I don't feel great. 

Yes, especially if I can keep from regaining it.

 

Way to go on the progress.