[SPOILERS]Episode VII: The Force Awakens [SPOILERS]

[Oramac]

Ok all.  I was just asked this question and didn't have a solid answer. 

 

Why does Kylo Ren wear a helmet?  He clearly doesn't need it to survive, as Vader did, and we already have at least one Sith who didn't wear one at all (Sidious).  Anakin/Vader also didn't wear one before he got bar-b-q'd.  

 

My answer was that Ren wore it as a kind of homage to Vader, though that feels like a flimsy answer.  

 

So what say you, Nerds!? 

[Chris-Tien Jinn]

I suspect its not that deep. I know someone else came up with a justification from Star Wars lore but I think it was a simple slapstick moment they added in without deep thought to a back story. It may have bugged me a bit but it was still kinda funny.

 

I, cynically, decided that it was a good spot for drawing attention to a new toy.

[Tolsimir]

 

Ok all.  I was just asked this question and didn't have a solid answer. 

 

Why does Kylo Ren wear a helmet?  He clearly doesn't need it to survive, as Vader did, and we already have at least one Sith who didn't wear one at all (Sidious).  Anakin/Vader also didn't wear one before he got bar-b-q'd.  

 

My answer was that Ren wore it as a kind of homage to Vader, though that feels like a flimsy answer.  

 

So what say you, Nerds!? 

 

 

 

 

Kylo Ren: a Darth Vader fanboy.

Yepyepyep.

 

 

 

In terms of female representation overall, I was pretty pleased. I paid attention to a lot of the background characters.  Aside from Phasma, we also had several female bridge officers and at least one female infantry Stormtrooper (who was reporting to Phasma, thus implying there are probably lots of other female Stormtroopers who can't be identified as such in their uniforms). In the scenes of the Resistance stronghold there were (almost?) as many female pilots, mechanics, and other personnel as male ones.  Poe's squadron had almost equal numbers of male and female pilots when attacking Starkiller Base. They really paid attention to this, and I appreciated it.

 

 

 

Hear hear! 

 

- Who is Snoke?!?!  All we saw a hologram - he could be anyone at this point?  And is he the Grand Admiral from Afternmath? 

 

 

Clearly a severely scarred Jar Jar Binks Who Is Sith Lord.

 

 

I reaally enjoyed this film and am already looking forward to the next. 

Maybe I should just go and see it in the cinema a few extra times <3

[Strickland5]

I enjoyed the film and am showing up late here but just some random thoughts. 

 

Good 

• New characters were solid and overall likable.
• Poe needed more screen time even if he felt the most fleshed out.
• I'm thinking Rey is related to Luke due to the ocean + island bit that Kylo got out of her noodle.
• Fights were good, both space and light saber.
• Bb8 was solid R2 part 2.
• Tonfa trooper was cool!

Eh 

• Why there was a rebellion/resistance  ... it should just be the Republic.
• I see why folks are calling Ben Solo/Kyle Ren an Emo Vader, though I overall thought the character was okay.  Was glad the saber guards were used
• Why did the light saber call to Rey? That's a bit outside of what we've seen the force do previously
• Rey develops her force powers mighty quickly so I'm hoping that gets explained a touch more.
• Han's death felt slightly forced and Whedon-like aka we need a death to prove things are dangerous. It develops Kylo but I'm curious if there was a better way.
• Anakin's lightsaber being left behind should've been explained rather than handwaved away.

Bad

• The plot was a 90% rehash of New Hope with way way too many coincidences even to allow for "The Force".
• Pacing was too fast to let anything resonate.
• How had the Falcon not flown for years but was okay when the characters needed it. Also why had Han not found it yet?
• Capt Plasma was a throw away character.
• The big bad / Empire / New Order was a touch too generic
• Grand High Pooba Snook was weird and we've NO idea where he came from or is etc BUT the same could have been said for the emperor in NH ... so yeah
• Luke running away from his failed Jedi seems a stretch
• R2 coming online JUST at the end ... ugh

[Bullroarer Took]

 

 

Why does Kylo Ren wear a helmet?  

 

I remember reading somewhere (though it may have been speculation) that it was a symbol of the leader of the Knights of Ren

 

I enjoyed the film and am showing up late here but just some random thoughts. 

Eh 

• Why there was a rebellion/resistance  ... it should just be the Republic.
• I see why folks are calling Ben Solo/Kyle Ren an Emo Vader, though I overall thought the character was okay.  Was glad the saber guards were used
• Why did the light saber call to Rey? That's a bit outside of what we've seen the force do previously
• Rey develops her force powers mighty quickly so I'm hoping that gets explained a touch more.
• Han's death felt slightly forced and Whedon-like aka we need a death to prove things are dangerous. It develops Kylo but I'm curious if there was a better way.
• Anakin's lightsaber being left behind should've been explained rather than handwaved away.

Bad

• The plot was a 90% rehash of New Hope with way way too many coincidences even to allow for "The Force".
• Pacing was too fast to let anything resonate.
• How had the Falcon not flown for years but was okay when the characters needed it. Also why had Han not found it yet?
• Capt Plasma was a throw away character.
• The big bad / Empire / New Order was a touch too generic
• Grand High Pooba Snook was weird and we've NO idea where he came from or is etc BUT the same could have been said for the emperor in NH ... so yeah
• Luke running away from his failed Jedi seems a stretch
• R2 coming online JUST at the end ... ugh

 

 

•  Seemed like a group ready for piece and believing they "won" and another side that could be viewed as more extremist... but quite right in this case.  Republic was bound by treaty but continuing to work by proxy
• I was wondering if the area around the guards was cortosis or beskar... seems like the guards wouldn't serve their primary defensive purpose if not.  I was glad to see it wielded like a bastard sword.
•  I thought of it sort of like the force cave on Dagobah.  A strong spot in the force drew Luke and caused a vision... Perhaps the saber wielded by 2 Skywalkers was at that time a strong well of power itself
• I agree that it seemed fast.  Either force child or Skywalker might explain it... or previous forgotten training.  I am hoping this gap is closed.
• I thought Han's death was sealed when he walked out.  He knew he had low chances but he had to try.  I knew the story would not function well to have the "bad guy" just go soft hearted for his old man... besides it was a walkway with no guardrail.
• Again I am hoping more of the lightsaber's story comes later.  There was already so much in the movie I have to believe some of it comes later.

Bad

 

• Agree, the rehash was too much, especially the super duper death star.
• .Pacing didn't bother me.
• Yeah, they should have probably had a little more trouble firing it up.  Han had more problems with it in it's prime.  I think he somewhat addressed that he hadn't looked where it was but as soon as it was in use he could track it.
• Capt Phasma I think was turned into a bigger deal based on internet feedback and recasting.  I would guess we will see her more later.  But that aside agreeing to take down the shelds and expose their superweapon didn't seem too badass.
•  
• I think Snoke is just a tease at this point.
•   I don't know, maybe it's biding his time (Did Yoda bide his time or just ran away from the Emperor...) or he may see himself as more of a harm than good.  I think for a Jedi, becoming overwhelmed with fear and anger you may be more dangerous to stay than go into hiding.
• R2 D2 suddenly coming online.... yeah, seemed a bit too convenient.

[maegs]

I know someone mentioned this but I can't find the post..

The bit about how Han tells Rey and Finn that everything about the Jedi etc is all true - someone said something about how it hasn't been that long since the Jedi were an important force (haha) in the galaxy, how has everyone forgotten?

I think it's probably not that everyone forgot about the Jedi in a couple of generations, it's that Rey and Finn never learned about it due to their circumstances. Whoever took care of Rey on Jakku (someone had to have done) was probably more concerned with teaching her survival skills than history and politics and current affairs on the other side of the galaxy. Similarly Finn was probably taught something along the lines of "Empire/us good; rebels/resistance bad. Btw, our guys have ~magical powers~ and can read your minds so don't even think about running away." (Since the First Order is apparently kidnapping kids to be stormtroopers) Maybe they got a bit on the Jedi since they seemed to be armed with lightsaber-resistant weapons, but that doesn't mean they believed it.

My $0.02.

Sent by carrier pigeon

[Oramac]

It's going to be a looooooooonnnnnngggg 17 months until Episode VIII

 

Don't try to figure everything out all at once; you're pretty sure to be disappointed, but pleasnatly surpirised as well

 

Just enjoy The Force Awakens for what it is, and don't make anything more of it [but, feel free see it as often as you can, and grab as much merch as you can possibly afford]

 

This.  All of this.  I'm already looking forward to Ep VIII.  

[Strickland5]

The bit about how Han tells Rey and Finn that everything about the Jedi etc is all true - someone said something about how it hasn't been that long since the Jedi were an important force (haha) in the galaxy, how has everyone forgotten?

I think it's probably not that everyone forgot about the Jedi in a couple of generations, it's that Rey and Finn never learned about it due to their circumstances. Whoever took care of Rey on Jakku (someone had to have done) was probably more concerned with teaching her survival skills than history and politics and current affairs on the other side of the galaxy. Similarly Finn was probably taught something along the lines of "Empire/us good; rebels/resistance bad. Btw, our guys have ~magical powers~ and can read your minds so don't even think about running away." (Since the First Order is apparently kidnapping kids to be stormtroopers) Maybe they got a bit on the Jedi since they seemed to be armed with lightsaber-resistant weapons, but that doesn't mean they believed it.

It's been ~53 years since order 66 and the mass murdering of the Jedi. Plus think about it in the outer rim areas where the Jedi didn't operate as much .... I could see why they're a think of myth

 

 

Don't try to figure everything out all at once; you're pretty sure to be disappointed, but pleasnatly surpirised as well

 

Just enjoy The Force Awakens for what it is, and don't make anything more of it [but, feel free see it as often as you can, and grab as much merch as you can possibly afford]

I will look at it critically and not just "go along for the ride" ... JJ Abrams has this NASTY habit of sloppy story telling and it showed up a lot in SW:TFA.  

 

Examples

• What happened to Maz Kanata after her place got destroyed? No clue she just vanishes
• Why did Luke just LEAVE his father's lightsaber? "story for another time"
• Why did Luke run away? This is against his character
• Why did Han run away? In all three previous films he's always come back to do the right thing but not in TFA!
• Who are Rey's parents and why did they drop her off in Jakku? We got nothing here just a big ?
• Why did the First Order build ANOTHER Death Star er Starkiller base after the first two were destroyed? 
• SO MUCH happens by circumstance ! 

I enjoyed the movie but will NOT say it was great ... it was good movie with moments of greatness hampered from being great because of sloppy storytelling.

[RisenPhoenix]

I will look at it critically and not just "go along for the ride" ... JJ Abrams has this NASTY habit of sloppy story telling and it showed up a lot in SW:TFA.  

 

Examples

• What happened to Maz Kanata after her place got destroyed? No clue she just vanishes
• Why did Luke just LEAVE his father's lightsaber? "story for another time"
• Why did Luke run away? This is against his character
• Why did Han run away? In all three previous films he's always come back to do the right thing but not in TFA!
• Who are Rey's parents and why did they drop her off in Jakku? We got nothing here just a big ?
• Why did the First Order build ANOTHER Death Star er Starkiller base after the first two were destroyed? 
• SO MUCH happens by circumstance ! 

I enjoyed the movie but will NOT say it was a great ... it was good movie with moments of greatness hampered from being great because of sloppy storytelling.

 

• I sense that will be answered in the next movie.  She was, ultimately, a minor character who isn't really required to have a huge arc, just be a plot point to motivate things.
• That's the lightsaber that Luke was holding when his hand was chopped off.  Maz said it took a round about route to come into her possession, and even hints that it will eventually be answered - so I suspect it'll be addressed in the next movies.  As for why he wouldn't search for it - who the hell thought it would survive a fall from Bespin?  Besides, he has his own now.
• Han says losing Ben made Luke snap and become fearful.  Which is a path to the darkside.  So running away to not become his father is very much in line with his character.
• Han lost a kid, functionally.  Doing stupid shit is pretty much the norm in that instance.
• Pretty sure that's going to be the plot of Episode VIII
• Okay, yea, the Deathier Star was stupid.
• I feel like most movies are circumstance and Dues Ex Machinas, so I dunno.

I mean, be critical all you like.  But there are enough interviews talking about how they purposefully left strings and plots hanging for episode VIII, and how JJ kept collaborating with the episode VIII writer to make sure things are set up for that movie.  So I wouldn't say it's sloppy storytelling in this instance.  Maybe an overabundance of dangling plots, but it's a side effect of knowing they have at least 2 more movies to answer a lot of them.  Whether they do so successfully is another matter, but leaving those things there to start with is totally fine by me.

 

 

Anyway, saw the movie.  Greatly enjoyed it, even with the Deathier Star main plot.  Definitely felt more focused on the characters than that plot though, so while the Deathier Star was annoying, I didn't grumble too much on it.  I strongly suspect Fin, Rey, and Poe will all be Jedi - one of the major hallmarks of Jedi seems to be excellent aptitude with accuracy and ship maneuvering, so I feel like focusing on these traits was laying the hints/groundwork for that.  I wasn't overly shocked by any of the developments as the plot opened, but it was fun to watch it unfold anyway.  Han I pretty much knew was going the die the moment he told Leia he would try to bring back Kylo Ren.  Also, still wondering who the old dude at the beginning of the movie was.

 

And speaking of that, I was very much not expecting Poe to be Leia's top fighter.  I fully expected after that opening scroll to see Han hunkering down on Jakku.  So I was pleased to see it be one of the New Kids.

 

But yea, they set up enough to make the next few months a killer wait.  I'm guessing the next movie will have a big "Who is Family" motif running through it (Finn/Rey finding who their families are, Ben thinking about what he's given up, Poe about how the Resistance is family, etc etc), in addition to how training Force Users in a post-RotJ galaxy.  I'm interested to see how Snoke is planning on ending Kylo Ren's training.  Is it going to be an instance of "Strike me Down to become the Master" or something else?  Dunno.

[RisenPhoenix]

Oh, also another thought.

 

I liked the suggestion/implication that The Empire had been using a Clone Army for it's Stormtroopers, since there was a quick line by Kylo Ren that Hux's non-clones were being tested.  Still horribly ripped away from families and brainwashed.  But still capable of independent human thought.

[Oramac]

• SO MUCH happens by circumstance ! 

• I feel like most movies are circumstance and Dues Ex Machinas, so I dunno.

 

Life is circumstance.  That's actually a fairly recurring theme in Star Wars.  "Things depend greatly on our own point of view", and all that jazz.  

[Strickland5]

Life is circumstance.  That's actually a fairly recurring theme in Star Wars.  "Things depend greatly on our own point of view", and all that jazz.  

Sorry I typed faster than my brain ... I mean so much happned in the film by coincidence

[Oramac]

Sorry I typed faster than my brain ... I mean so much happned in the film by coincidence

 

"There's no such thing as [coincidence]".  

 

Yes, I know, Obi-Wan actually said "luck", not "coincidence", but I think it's pretty safe to say the Jedi don't believe in coincidence any more than they believe in luck.  

 

[DISCLAIMER]: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.  Not trying to actually argue or be mean or anything.  I would have preferred less coincidence in the movie as well.

[Raincloak]

The FULL quote is "In my experience, there is no such thing as luck"

 

I could just as easily say: "In my experience, there's so such thing as an upgrade to First Class"

 

That's not to say they're aren't ... I've just never experienced one

 

Also, Obi-Wan, being a Jedi, could cheat like fuck with dice, or cards, or any number of "games of chance" to manipulate the outcome to his favor and take luck completely out of the picture

 

Qui-gon did cheat at a game of chance to acquire Anakin.  One of the few things I remember about The Phantom Menace is Qui-gon using the Force to control Watto's die, and since Obi-wan was with him, he probably saw the whole thing or heard about it shortly thereafter.  I remember thinking it wasn't very honorable for a Jedi to cheat, although a piece of fluff I read elsewhere suggested Watto's die was rigged to begin with.

 

If Jedi were real I certainly would never play cards with one of them, except purely for entertainment.  (But then, I only "gamble" for the amusement of watching people take my money anyway.  I understand enough math to know the game is rigged, so I don't play under any illusion that I might win.)

 

if you ask me, the Jedi belief in destiny is their biggest darned problem, and curiously a lot of the Darksiders seem to suffer from it too.  It causes them to sit on their asses when they're convinced destiny is on their side, or mumble about prophecies and not actually do anything.

 

... hmmmm.  Someone should write a historical crossover featuring John Calvin as a Jedi master.

[Raincloak]

I said John Calvin, the theologian for whom the cartoon kid is named   His big thing was predestination.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

 

 

 

 

^ could totally see this guy with a lightsaber, a grim and austere Force presence, and a sizable can of whoopass for heretics.

[TheOtherScott]

I know someone mentioned this but I can't find the post..

The bit about how Han tells Rey and Finn that everything about the Jedi etc is all true - someone said something about how it hasn't been that long since the Jedi were an important force (haha) in the galaxy, how has everyone forgotten?

My $0.02.

Sent by carrier pigeon

 

As far as everyone outside the throne room knew, Vader and the Emperor were killed when the Death Star II blew up.  Nobody would have known Luke became a Jedi or that he trained with Yoda.  As far as the general galactic public knows, the Jedi purge 20 years before Episode IV was when the last Jedi was killed.  50 years since there was a Jedi temple, and it's quite likely Luke kept his training very secretive as well.

[maegs]

As far as everyone outside the throne room knew, Vader and the Emperor were killed when the Death Star II blew up. Nobody would have known Luke became a Jedi or that he trained with Yoda. As far as the general galactic public knows, the Jedi purge 20 years before Episode IV was when the last Jedi was killed. 50 years since there was a Jedi temple, and it's quite likely Luke kept his training very secretive as well.

The post I can't find was more about how it hasn't really been that long since the Old Republic, Order 66, etc., not really long enough for the entire pre-Empire Jedi order to become a myth. Like, there could conceivably be people alive by the time of TFA who were alive during the Old Republic. I guess it'd be sort of the equivalent of Churchill or someone being a myth in today's world?

Sent by carrier pigeon

[Strickland5]

So, let me get this straight ... The lightsaber that Rey is given, is the one Luke was holding when Vader chopped his hand off in the duel in the Cloud City

And it fell out of the bottom, where Luke was rescued by Leia Lando & Chewie in the Falcon

Back on the ground, on Bespin, something like this?

you never see Anakin's saber again in the original trilogy

[Sloth the Enduring]

There weren't very many Jedi during the Republic. One Jedi might be the only one watching over an entire system.

[Bullroarer Took]

The post I can't find was more about how it hasn't really been that long since the Old Republic, Order 66, etc., not really long enough for the entire pre-Empire Jedi order to become a myth. Like, there could conceivably be people alive by the time of TFA who were alive during the Old Republic. I guess it'd be sort of the equivalent of Churchill or someone being a myth in today's world?

Sent by carrier pigeon

 

I have a friend who served in Iraq and once found a family living in the wilderness who not only didn't know there was a war... they didn't know who Saddam Hussein was.  They didn't communicate with the outside world and lived their lives without knowledge of the country in which they lived.  Considering how backwater Jakku was it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me that folks may not know.  The only caveat to that is that the next ridge over was a tenet of the Church of the Jedi faithful Lor San Tekka (Max Von Sydow) which makes you think perhaps some knowledge would be around.  But it could also be dismissed as just someone's faith and not based in reality.  

[Kes]

Rey clearly knew a lot of the stories about Luke Skywalker. She was using those stories as inspiration for what to do when captured. I interpreted Han's comment about the stories "being true" to refer to the Force, about which he was originally skeptical in A New Hope, not about the existence of the Jedi order.

[maegs]

I have a friend who served in Iraq and once found a family living in the wilderness who not only didn't know there was a war... they didn't know who Saddam Hussein was.  They didn't communicate with the outside world and lived their lives without knowledge of the country in which they lived.  Considering how backwater Jakku was it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me that folks may not know.  The only caveat to that is that the next ridge over was a tenet of the Church of the Jedi faithful Lor San Tekka (Max Von Sydow) which makes you think perhaps some knowledge would be around.  But it could also be dismissed as just someone's faith and not based in reality.  

 

I totally agree that on Jakku they could not know what was happening! but I don't think that we can assume that everyone doesn't know. OP had said something like 'how can everyone have forgotten in such a short time'; I don't think that everyone's forgotten, but that either people didn't know to start with or it wasn't considered an important thing to teach young people about

[Raincloak]

In the context of the plot of TFA, Han's remark "It's all true" seems less of a comment on galactic myths and more of an observation based on his own experiences.  He thought Jedi Knights were bogus at least as late as "Return of the Jedi" (he called Luke's little project "delusions of grandeur,"), but presumably having a kid who grew up to be a Jedi forced him to revise his views.

 

 In the trailer clearly they were aiming for a subtext of "awe" with that comment, but in the actual film the subtext is weariness.  Yes, Jedi are real, Han's been there and done that and doesn't wanna talk about it.  (I'm not surprised Han is unenthused about Jedi Knights.  Pretty much every experience he's had with them has been negative.  Kenobi made a fool of him, Vader tortured him, Luke took his son away, Kylo turned on him.)

 

 

As a historian I very much doubt a politically powerful religion at least 20,000 years old ("a thousand generations" according to Kenobi) could be reduced to an historical footnote in just a couple of decades.  Billions of planets in a galaxy, and you killed every last adherent in one generation?  Seems unlikely, even though Yoda claimed Luke was the last Jedi.  People in real life have spent a lot longer than that trying to kill every Jew on one planet, even with popular support, and haven't yet succeeded.  They kill a bunch, then the rest flee or go underground.

 

If Luke is 40 or 50 as of TFA, there's still a good number of humans around who can remember the previous Republic.  Hell, a lot of SW aliens seem to live for centuries, so they can remember the last twenty human generations, nineteen of which were under the old regime.  Maybe that's why Palpatine was said to not like aliens, they were older than him and could remember when he was nonexistent...

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

There were 10,000 Jedi before Order 66, in a Republic of roughly 100 quadrillion (10^17) sentient individuals (that's the number I found in research, and makes sense assuming an average population of 10 billion on 10 million worlds). That's one jedi per 10 trillion people. That's like having 1 jedi per 1000 earths. They're an extremely small order on the galactic scale for special interests/projects.

 

Most sentients are probably only concerned with the going-ons of their world and only hear about jedi very infrequently in galactic news, and probably not even that if one assumes jedi operations are low profile. They probably don't believe in them actually having powers, which the jedi probably don't even publicize. Those who DO know about them probably think they're a religious order of mediators and warriors, the specifics of the powers being pretty much kept within the order.

 

It's like if I told you guys there a small 5 man unit within the government with mind powers that operate on a worldwide political level. You're probably going to think I'm full of crap.

[Oramac]

Rey clearly knew a lot of the stories about Luke Skywalker. She was using those stories as inspiration for what to do when captured. I interpreted Han's comment about the stories "being true" to refer to the Force, about which he was originally skeptical in A New Hope, not about the existence of the Jedi order.

 

This was my interpretation as well.