[SPOILERS]Episode VII: The Force Awakens [SPOILERS]

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

The Rebellion also used Luke as a huge propaganda tool, telling war stories about the incredible Jedi and his exploits that everyone probably thought were hugely inflated. That might be all most of them had ever heard of the jedi based on my previous point.

[Strickland5]

This was my interpretation as well.  

 

The Rebellion also used Luke as a huge propaganda tool, telling war stories about the incredible Jedi and his exploits that everyone probably thought were hugely inflated. That might be all most of them had ever heard of the jedi based on my previous point.

 

I just wish there was a scene showing that ... again sloppy writing/story telling.

[Oramac]

I just wish there was a scene showing that ... again sloppy writing/story telling.

 

I agree, but at some point they have to cut corners to keep it around the 2 hour mark.  If they included every scene we've mentioned wanting in this thread alone, the film would have been an easy 3 hours long.  Maybe more.  

 

(Which I would be totally cool with, for the record)

[BLACKBOARD MONITOR]

Was the Starkiller a renovated planet, or a really big space station with pointless planet camouflage?

I felt like the story line was different enough to not insult audiences, but there was a hint of James Bond-esque referencing/ripping off previous films.

At least nobody's hand got chopped off.

Last thought for now, if he was living alone on a temperate planet with no sign of washing facilities, is it any surprise that Luke's cloak is a bit grimy and grey? Less indication of alignment and more dirty wise man?

[Strickland5]

At least nobody's hand got chopped off.

That's for the second film

[Oramac]

Yep, Luke lost his in Ep 5 and Anakin in Ep 2

 

Although, Threepio lost a whole ARM between Ep 6 & Ep 7 [must've forgotten to let a Wookie win?]

 

Threepio also lost an arm in Ep IV when the Sand Person attacked Luke and Threepio fell off the rock.  

[RisenPhoenix]

I just wish there was a scene showing that ... again sloppy writing/story telling.

I agree, but at some point they have to cut corners to keep it around the 2 hour mark.  If they included every scene we've mentioned wanting in this thread alone, the film would have been an easy 3 hours long.  Maybe more.  

 

(Which I would be totally cool with, for the record)

 

I think this may be one of the pitfalls of having SO MUCH cross media canon material going on right now, honestly.  Yes, these things should have been said to make the movie a stand-alone event.  But the info is out there, so rehashing that probably seems needless for the studio.

 

Not that it's an excuse.  But potential rational as to why we have lots of questions that weren't answered.

 

Also apparently the movie novelization really offers a more solid reasoning on a lot of things.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

My damn multi-quote isn't working

 

But as to there being a scene covering it, there really is only so far down the rabbit hole you can go in a movie. All the canon out there needs multiple sources to cover it all. This particular propaganda one is pretty far down the list of things I think the film should have touched on more, to me seeming to fit right into what the in-between novels that will be slowly coming out should cover. The political climate and situation is closer to the top, as the question "WTF is the Resistance vs. The Republic" question is all over the place. I saw it a third time yesterday with my dad and explained the political situation before the movie so he wouldn't be lost like so many.

 

Speaking of seeing it again, I paid special attention for hints of Rey's parentage this time around. The biggest thing I saw was the change in Han once he finds out her name. There's definitely a flash of recognition in his face when he finds out, then he starts offering her a job. He knows who she is, and who her parents are. At the same time, it's not enough of a reaction for her to be his and Leia's child with how emotional they are with Ben. Any theories that she's theirs are out the window for me.That leaves The Force Child theory and the Luke's daughter theory.

 

The Force Child one may have led her to be an important apprentice of Luke's that Han either knew or heard Luke talk about. The reaction seems about right for realizing there's a survivor from the academy that he needs to keep an eye on. In this case, she might be someone Ben missed and someone else helped escape. Perhaps maybe another older apprentice? This would then make more sense for dropping her off on an outer rim planet or selling her off to someone who would sell her off again. It would be a better situation that being hunted down by Ren and killed. My thought in this scenario is that Ren hunted down the older apprentice, but they got rid of Rey in such a way that Ren couldn't find her. That would explain his anger when he finds out about the force sensitive girl running around, she's the one he couldn't find earlier in his career.

 

As for the Luke's daughter angle, I still think the reaction I saw was too soft for this. Then again, she would be his niece through marriage, not blood. This would explain Leia's matriarchal embrace of her before she gets on The Falcon toward the end, she means more to Leia than she did to Han, since she is her blood aunt. That embrace seems a bit out of place if she's not blood as in the situation above.

 

However, that could be explained by Leia knowing her better than Han did even if they're not blood. If she was just another apprentice, maybe Leia went to the academy in the early days to attempt to learn to use the force. She does feel Han die through the force when she's all the way on another world, so she seems more in touch with it than when we last saw her in VI. In this case, she'd have known the other apprentices, and perhaps been a mother figure to the younger ones. This would explain a non-blood connection with Rey.

 

More spit balling, we won't know for sure until VIII of course, but I have a strong feeling that Han knew Rey in passing, or perhaps just of her, but Leia had a stronger connection with her in the past.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Fun thing I just found out yesterday: The stormtrooper that lets Rey free of the bonds is played by mister 007 himself.

[Oramac]

Fun thing I just found out yesterday: The stormtrooper that lets Rey free of the bonds is played by mister 007 himself.

 

I heard that as well.  Very cool! 

[BLACKBOARD MONITOR]

Fun thing I just found out yesterday: The stormtrooper that lets Rey free of the bonds is played by mister 007 himself.

I'd heard that he had a cameo and completely forgot to watch out for it. Now I need to watch it again just to listen out for him.

[Strickland5]

Friend of mine's "rant" on why Rey is a Mary Sue

In the past few days, there has been a disturbing trend of calling out people who criticize the character of Rey in The Force Awakens as “sexist” and “misogynists.” These crusaders shout these labels from the rafters to squash any argument. They are thinking only along gender lines, and what they don’t realize is that most of the people, like myself, who take issue with the writing of Rey’s character, have no stake in her gender.

 

Before I delve into the meat of this issue, I’d like to remind anyone reading this that in my full Force Awakens review, I made prominent mention of the fact that the new actors in the film were superb, and that includes Daisy Ridley. Ridley brought her A-game to the table on this film and did everything that was asked of her as a professional performer. What I’m about to discuss has nothing to do with Ridley or her gender, and everything to do with the writing of her character. The writing was broken, not the actress.

Those decrying anti-Rey sentiment as sexist have only proven that they have no working grasp of the character details of the Star Wars saga. Countless memes and posts assert that the sexism against Rey lies in the fact that Luke Skywalker “is exactly the same” but no one criticizes him because he’s male.

I beg to differ. I beg to differ strongly.

 

Luke Skywalker gets heaps of criticism, and has for decades. How do I know that? Because Luke Skywalker has been my favorite fictional character since I first “met” him in 1982.

So first let’s debunk the assertion that Rey is over-scrutinized for being female while criticism flows off Luke like water off a duck’s back.

 

You know what I’ve been told my whole life? “Luke is a whiner,” and “Han Solo is cooler.” I’ve heard all kinds of things, such as, “Luke isn’t an interesting character. His Force powers make him a Superman.” They say Han Solo is more grounded and relatable. And they’ve said this for three decades. I’ve been derided and joshed constantly because of my admiration for Luke Skywalker, and been told, “Well, if you ever grow up, you’ll see Han Solo is the best character.”

 

 

Only in the wake of The Force Awakens, has Luke Skywalker all-too-conveniently been positioned as a perfect character that’s never been criticized. That’s total bullshit. The pro-Rey contingent is making that up out of thin air.

 

 

Then they move to say that Luke and Rey “are exactly the same,” attempting to nullify the arguments against her character. Again, they only succeed in showing their working knowledge of Star Wars is bush league. Let’s break it down.

 

“Luke and Rey are both good with machines.”

This isn’t a big shocker. Luke, likely with a natural ability, was trained by his uncle to repair farm equipment and speeder vehicles. Rey was trained to scavenge Jakku for usable ship parts and tech, and she also used a speeder to get around. That’s acceptable for both.

 

“Luke and Rey are both pilots.”

This is where things start to fall apart. Driving a speeder and piloting an aircraft or spacecraft are two different things.

 

Luke was described by his friend Biggs as “the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territories.” He had his own T-16 Skyhopper, seen in the original film, and described his experiences flying it and shooting Womprats at range and speed.

 

Rey? She can drive a speeder like Luke, but where did she learn TO FLY? It’s a different animal altogether. You drive a car every day, but you can’t fly a plane with the same knowledge.

Now take that a step further: Rey can FLY AND FIX the Millennium Falcon?!

 

In the original Star Wars, Luke was chided by Han Solo and treated like an inexperienced kid, as well he should have been. Han Solo smacks his hands away from the Falcon’s dashboard, prompted when Luke asks him what the flashing light means. Point is, Luke doesn’t know anything about the Millennium Falcon. It’s more starship than he’s ever seen, a different beast altogether. The X-Wing was quite similar to Luke’s Skyhopper, a one-person “stunt fighter.” Not the Falcon though…Luke never did fly Solo’s ship in point of fact.

 

 

Rey hasn’t paid any attention to the Falcon on Jakku. It isn’t her first choice to fly at all. However, when she hops in, it takes only seconds for her to absolutely master the controls. She instantly knows the internal layout of all the conduits and mechanicals. And when there’s a problem, she’s able to start fixing everything immediately. Need I remind you that Han Solo and Chewbacca were often quite challenged to figure out what was wrong with the Falcon at any given moment, and they knew that ship better than anyone in the galaxy!

 

 

Rey can understand the languages of droids and wookiees.

This is one that conveniently isn’t being mentioned by the pro-Rey camp because they know that it’s ridiculous, and that Luke wasn’t blessed with the same magic abilities, so a comparison is invalid.

 

Luke Skywalker was never able to understand R2-D2’s language without help from C-3PO or his X-Wing’s dashboard translator. Lines such as, “What’s wrong with him now?” and “If you’re saying coming here was a bad idea, I’m beginning to agree with you,” show that, logically, Luke has no way to translate R2’s electronic language. C-3PO always translates for R2 in Luke’s presence.

Meanwhile, Rey runs into a BB-unit in the desert, it starts beeping and she comprehends and answers it in full conversation, even though it’s a highly advanced piece of technology that no one on Jakku has probably ever seen before.

 

 

She can also understand Chewbacca, which is ridiculous. Sure, Solo can understand him. They’ve worked together for years. But Rey? Was there a Wookiee nightclub on Jakku where she could immerse herself in their unique language long enough to be fluent?

 

“Luke and Rey both know how to use the Force.”

Wrong! In the original film, Luke is told what the Force is, and begins training under Obi-Wan, but he is not able to really use the Force at all in the film until the end when he is assisted from beyond the grave by Obi-Wan’s inner monologue coaching.

 

Rey, without anyone teaching her anything, can block the mind of a Sith and execute a Jedi mind trick. She can also see visions from the past and future (something Luke could only do after weeks/months of training with Yoda in the second film).

“Luke and Rey were both good with lightsabers.”

Again, WRONG WRONG WRONG!

 

 

Luke got shot in the ass by a training remote on the Falcon while trying (badly) to use a lightsaber. He never uses a lightsaber again in the film and certainly never duels Darth Vader in the original film.

 

 

In the second film, he uses a lightsaber clumsily like a machete to stop a Wampa, but again, only after weeks/months of training with Yoda, does he have any skill with a lightsaber (scenes with him training with saber and Yoda were filmed but deleted) and even then Yoda warns him he doesn’t have the skill to face Vader. He’s partially trained, but still loses to an aging and maimed Sith Lord who’s incapacitated by a life support suit.

 

Rey on the other hand, doesn’t pick up a lightsaber until the last second, and although having no training and zero experience with the weapon, manages to defeat a trained Sith/Ren whatever person.

 

 

The final main criticism of Rey is that she’s not only granted all of these abilities seemingly magically, but she impresses everyone in the process.

That wasn’t the case with Luke Skywalker. Han didn’t think he was a good pilot, Han didn’t think he was very smart, Han made fun of him for his crush on the Princess, Leia thought he was too young and too short to be staging a rescue and Chewbacca almost tore his head off on the Death Star.

 

 

In Rey’s case, Han offers her a job a few hours after meeting her. He’s impressed by her ability to fix the Falcon. Chewie likes her immediately. Leia gives her the privilege of going to get Luke, even though many other people know Luke far, far better. The bad guys want to hire her, Finn is impressed with her, BB-8 loves her almost more than his master, Poe.

In all of this pro-Rey fervor, none of these details have been brought up by the pro-Rey camp. For most, it’s because they just don’t know them. For others, who I know personally know better, I’m ashamed of them. I’m ashamed that they are accusing people of sexism, ashamed that they aren’t being objective with the Luke/Rey comparison, ashamed that they aren’t citing what’s actually similar and what isn’t. Their broad stroke tactics are appalling and dishonest.

 

 

Equality is about scrutinizing things equally regardless of gender. For 33 years, I’ve scrutinized the Star Wars films – all of them – and the Rey character is only similar to Luke with the thinnest of paints and is otherwise a character that is written illogically for the sake of convenience. The writers are manipulating the audience to like her rather than allowing the audience to form their own opinions organically, and in doing so, they’ve tipped their hand so badly it’s amateurish.

 

 

We like Luke and Han because of their flaws, not because “they’re badasses.” Strip away the narrative conveniences and make Rey a more logically-developed character, and then tell me why you like her.

 

 

I can tell you why I liked her. Because before BB-8 showed up, before the Falcon and Han Solo showed up. Before the lightsaber and the Force showed up. Before all of those elements showed up that revealed she was perfect and BROKE THE CHARACTER, she was a self-sufficient survivor on a desolate world, who earned her own food and made her own way.

Why was it not OK for the writers to say, “Rey will need to learn new things after she leaves Jakku,”? Why was that a problem for them? Why did Rey have to come blasting into this movie fully-formed? Rey has almost nowhere else to go dramatically in the next few movies because we’ve seen her accomplish all the keystone things.

 

 

She’s joined the Rebels, she’s used the Force, she’s won a lightsaber battle and she’s rejected the temptation of the Dark Side. She’s now the pilot of the Millennium Falcon, the new Jedi hopeful, and the female lead. She’s Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia and Han Solo ALL IN ONE.

 

 

But please, tell me again how that’s sexist to point out and how these other characters were just as capable and just as perfect. Oh wait…you can’t.

 

Speaking of Princess Leia…she was a female lead in the original films, she was “a badass,” she eventually tapped into the Force, she was a crack shot with a blaster (she’s the best shot in the films), and you don’t hear the pro-Rey camp using her as a comparison. Why? Because the pro-Rey camp knows the people who criticize Rey have never criticized Leia. It would destroy their argument to reveal that fact. And why? Because Leia is a female character who grows and changes logically and believably just like the male characters of the original Star Wars.

 

So it really isn’t about gender for those doing the scrutinizing, but it’s all about gender for those holding Rey on a pedestal for simply being female, and that’s where their scrutinizing stops. Which is why they can’t provide these details into Luke that shows their comparison (and by extension their crusade) is baseless and empty...just like the script for The Force Awakens.

[Strickland5]

yeah ... still think they're wrong Rey is a solidly a Mary Sue/Gary Stu/Marty Stu/OP character she does everything well .. 

 

Overall I think sloppy writing/storytelling is the biggest flaw in the film

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

While the write up makes points, it really sounds childish where it respectively insults the people with a different view point as "having a bush league understanding" among other things. Tell your buddy to attack the argument, not the person with it, if he wants to be taken seriously.

 

His arguments seem to ignore the fact that there's a lot we don't know of Rey's past yet, which is a theme of the movie. For example, he has issue that she knows how to fly and fix The Falcon. The movie gives a bunch of hints at why this might be. The Falcon has belonged to her boss for years (as it hasn't flown in years). She knows the internal layout of the ship, as well as the layout of the dashboard and controls. She was also involved somehow with it's maintenance (talking about how her input was ignored with design additions) and knows the mechanical layout.

 

My guess is that scavenging was her daily job, but she would get pulled into helping with other things as needed. One of these might have been maintenance on the Falcon and a crew member on trips due to her technical savy, and possibly copiloting it in space when boss man left the main controls. This would explain why she knows the layout and mechanics of the ship, but sucks at flying it near the ground (like taking off), but is fine once it gets moving. These are things that we don't know, but from what she said, are plausible and even likely. Hell, maybe al this knowledge is what made her not want to take The Falcon first, she knew how difficult of a time she'd have getting it off the ground and flying without a copilot. Maybe she had a better relationship with boss man at first, since he was the one holding her back as a child and may have been a drunken step dad guardian type to her for a time, before some type of falling out.

 

For talking to wookies, I can see that one being an issue and agree with it. Droids not so much, astromech language is a standard across the galaxy and she's probably had to interface with tons of droids and various languages on the patchwork outer rim planet of Jakku. There are tons of different species and everyone seems to know various different languages. Knowing Wookie is definitely a stretch, but not the others. BUt who knows, she might have run into a Wookie. The original Solo origins story tells us Han knows it because of the Wookie cook on the smuggler ship he grew up on as a kid. Knowing her gave him a soft spot for her kind and he saved Chewbacca from the Imperials because of it. He's with Chewbacca beause he knows Wookie, not the other way around.

 

His points on Luke talking with R2 are wrong. He converses with him in the movies and the books without the help of C3-PO or the x-wing screen. The reason he reads the x-wing screen in later movies is because he can't hear him in space and it's doubtful it plays his beeps through the helmet headset.

 

For the Fore, I think they've made it fairly obvious that there's something there we don't know about yet. If they play it off like she just picks it up like this, I agree on all the points that it's bullshit. My theories are the mind blocked former training that goes along with my origins stories of her being a former padawan, or that "The Awakening" is The Force willfully guiding someone in it's use, possibly the true Chosen One.

 

For the lightsaber, Rey is skilled with her staff and though a sword is very different, parts would carry over. She is far from skilled. I had this issue too at first, but on the further viewings, Ren is basically chasing her through the forest and she's doing all she can just to block his attacks and run away/dodge the next one. She then focuses in on something when they're near the cliff, and then something clicks and she has a burst of skillful attacks. This is one of the things that makes me theorize that the force is guiding her.

 

As for the impressing everyone, the job offer seems to be because he knows who she is/her past and feels responsibility. You can see it in his face when he learns her name like I said previously.

 

I'm with the argument that people dismissing these complaints due to thinking the person is sexist are not seeing the big picture. There are definitely holes in this character and her story, regardless of gender. A lot of all these arguments come down to us simply not knowing things. Many of these things may be explained in the future. I'll be on board with the point that so much about her character is bullshit if there's no explanation, but my prediction is that there's an explanation. I'm reserving judgement until we find out if there is any.

[Strickland5]

In his defense folks have been bashing him pretty hard for his criticisms of SW:TFA

[Oramac]

 

yeah ... still think they're wrong Rey is a solidly a Mary Sue/Gary Stu/Marty Stu/OP character she does everything well .. 

 

Overall I think sloppy writing/storytelling is the biggest flaw in the film

 

 

So basically, you don't like the film.  Fair enough.  Why bother to continue discussing it with those that do?  

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

You can not like one aspect and like others. I 've enjoyed the film immensely to the point I've seen it 3 times already, but I also agree that the storytelling and plot are weak.

[Strickland5]

You can not like one aspect and like others. I 've enjoyed the film immensely to the point I've seen it 3 times already, but I also agree that the storytelling and plot are weak.

This

[Oramac]

You can not like one aspect and like others. I 've enjoyed the film immensely to the point I've seen it 3 times already, but I also agree that the storytelling and plot are weak.

This

 

I agree that the storytelling and plot are weak.  But to call Rey a MarySue is to call Luke one as well.  

 

Consider:

 

- Luke began his training very late relative to the "normal" Jedi training techniques. 

- Luke showed natural piloting skills ("blasting womp rats, and they're not much bigger than two meters", "be just like Beggar's Canyon back home")

- Luke had, AT MOST, about 30 days of formal training time between ANH and ESB.  

- Took on, and beat, quite a lot of henchmen of Jabba the Hutt with a lightsaber that he'd only had about 10 minutes of [on-screen] training with. Keep in mind that Yoda never on-screen teaches him anything with a lightsaber, and even goes so far as to tell Luke he will not need weapons in the Dark Side Cave. Yes, there's 4 years between ANH and ROTJ, but consider that in those four year he seemingly learned enough to....

- Take down Darth Vader and (by extension) the Emperor, who had several decades of training each.  

 

 

So if Rey is a Mary Sue, Luke Skywalker most definitely is as well. 

[Oramac]

[truncated]

 

I'm reserving judgement until we find out if there is any.

 

I didn't see this post until after I'd written my previous post.  Overall, I agree with Gains' assessment.  

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Rey is being construed as a Mary Sue for two reasons. First she seems to have no flaws. I can sort of agree with that, she has no weaknesses in her character so far. Luke wasn't like that, he was whiny and had no clue what the hell was going on half the time. He ran into situations headlong and it was his friends that saved him. By the time anyone gets to saving Rey, she's already saving herself. It gets to the point that it's a little humorous with her running around Starkiller base and not being seen. I can agree with this side of it, the no character flaws part.

 

The second is the major part people are leaning on, that she's so good at everything and picks everything up so easily. She's using the force skillfully by the end of the movie. She can not get killed wielding a lightsaber. She can fly The Falcon and fix all the things. This is the part I have issue with. My guess is there's things in her past that we don't know that explain a lot if not all of it, as well as other plot points. This whole "HOW CAN SHE DO THAT!?" isn't supposed to go unexplained, it's supposed to have people asking questions of why, and not assuming there's just no reason. People are missing that. They want us to be in awe of her, and they'll reveal why she can do it later.

 

As for Luke, he never gets super force strong in the originals. He can Force push people's mind, pull his saber to himself, and fight with the saber well. He also figures out how to force jump. These are all basic techniques that one would be able to learn over 6 years, especially being trained 1 on 1 via Obi-wan force ghost. We don't see this in the movies, but it's laid out in books I believe. I haven't read much of the intra-trilogy books, but picked up hints about it in later ones. He didn't just visit yoda twice and become a jedi.

 

The natural skills with things are one of the tip offs that someone is force sensitive, they manifest without training. For some it's piloting, others it's being an amazing healer, etc. One does not need to be training for The Force to touch them to make them good at things, they need to be trained to truly harness it and bend it to their will.

 

Vader was getting old and he bested him in saber combat, that's believable. Luke didn't beat Palpatine, who ended up roasting him with Force lighning sand was going to kill Luke through purely overpowering him with The Force. The only reason Vader killed him was he surprised Palpatine by turning. None of this points to being super strong in using the force, just Luke being young and spry. His force powers develop later over time.

[Oramac]

Rey is being construed as a Mary Sue for two reasons. First she seems to have no flaws. I can sort of agree with that, she has no weaknesses in her character so far. Luke wasn't like that, he was whiny and had no clue what the hell was going on half the time. He ran into situations headlong and it was his friends that saved him. By the time anyone gets to saving Rey, she's already saving herself. It gets to the point that it's a little humorous with her running around Starkiller base and not being seen. I can agree with this side of it, the no character flaws part.

 

Vader was getting old and he bested him in saber combat, that's believable. Luke didn't beat Palpatine, who ended up roasting him with Force lighning sand was going to kill Luke through purely overpowering him with The Force. The only reason Vader killed him was he surprised Palpatine by turning. None of this points to being super strong in using the force, just Luke being young and spry. His force powers develop later over time.

 

I agree with the parts I removed.  And truth be told, I agree with the first part, but want to mention that she does fail a couple times in the movie.  Once, when trying to mind-trick the trooper, it took her two tries and face-to-face (face-to-helmet?) line of sight to succeed.  Second, Kylo Ren easily beats her in the forest before he captured her.  And I think it's safe to say Kylo isn't much better trained than she is.  

 

Copy/pasted from the IMDB Trivia section (my emphasis added):

The lightsaber battles are choreographed to be distinctly different from the ones in the first and second trilogies. Rather than the flashy, Force-assisted moves in the prequels or the formalized, kendo-like movements of the original trilogy, the fights are staged to appear less rehearsed, and more brutal and realistic. According to John Boyega and others, this was a deliberate choice to reflect the characters' inexperience with lightsabers as a weapon. Kylo appears to have had little experience in formal dueling and both Finn and Rey pick up lightsabers and use them with no training at all.

 

So none of them are supposed to have particularly advanced skills, which helps explain why she is able to keep up with Ren.  Also keep in mind, if I remember correctly, the entire reason Ren's saber has the crossguard blades is because he was untrained when he built it, and he kinda mucked it up.  

-------------------

As for the Luke/Vader thing, Vader was only ~46 years old when he died.  There's plenty of guys out there 20-30 years older than that who could kick Luke's whiny ass with a sword.  

 

And I think it's safe to say that if Luke hadn't beat Vader, Vader would not have killed the Emperor.  

[Oramac]

This is getting ridiculous

 

It's just a movie

 

A valid point.  Though I'm not going to ignore the thread.  

[zeroh13]

My question with all of these theories about Rey's background is what's the difference in ages between Rey and Kylo Ren?

I was under the impression that they were around the same age. And in the flashbacks, Rey was a little child when she was left, and Kylo Ren seemed to be a teenager when he betrayed Luke. So the theory that she was a survivor from that wouldn't work if they are close in age.

[Kes]

With all the discussion about Rey being a Mary Sue, I'd like to point out that in the prior three movies we had to deal with a main character who was literally so gifted with the Force that the Jedi Order thought he was the savior of the galaxy. And his in-canon flaws were that he was "too reckless" (in ways that inevitably made for cool action scenes), and "loved his girlfriend/wife too much," and that made him turn into a tragic villain.

 

If we're talking about Mary Sues here, the shark has been long-since jumped.